Controversial end to Oregon Tournament Game

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I agree that the FED has not established an official way to end a quarter. However, (Rule 1.14) "...... the audible timer's signal shall indicate that time has expired." I am not saying the whistle automatically ends the quarter or ends a try for goal if the shot is in the air. Putting a whistle to the audible signal/horn gives that official, as well as everyone in the gym, a reference as to where the ball is at that point. How would you ever get in trouble by putting a whistle to the scoreboard's horn at the end of a quarter?

In the OP, the T's whistle is a full second after the horn. Had he put a whistle on the horn, it may have helped him establish the fact that the ball was out of the shooter's hand at the time the horn sounded.

I'm not putting whistle on the play until it is dead. That means immediately if the ball is still in the shooter's hand when time expires. A legal shot in mid-flight is not getting a whistle from me. I will hit my whistle the shot goes through the basket or when it is obvious that the shot is no good.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm not putting whistle on the play until it is dead. That means immediately if the ball is still in the shooter's hand when time expires. A legal shot in mid-flight is not getting a whistle from me. I will hit my whistle the shot goes through the basket or when it is obvious that the shot is no good.

Me, too.

And, fwiw, this specific procedure is in the NCAW CCA manual.

[griblets]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm not putting whistle on the play until it is dead. That means immediately if the ball is still in the shooter's hand when time expires. A legal shot in mid-flight is not getting a whistle from me. I will hit my whistle the shot goes through the basket or when it is obvious that the shot is no good.

Agree 100%.

[BillyMac]

Our local guys have been instructed not to sound the whistle to end a period, unless something "weird" happens to end the period (foul right before horn, shot not released before horn sounds, horn doesn't sound with all zeros, etc.)

I don't believe that there is anything in the NFHS Rulebook that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't believe that there's anything in the IAABO Mechanics Manual that that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual, but I would like to know what it states. A little help please ...

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Our local guys have been instructed not to sound the whistle to end a period, unless something "weird" happens to end the period (foul right before horn, shot not released before horn sounds, horn doesn't sound with all zeros, etc.)

I don't believe that there is anything in the NFHS Rulebook that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't believe that there's anything in the IAABO Mechanics Manual that that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual, but I would like to know what it states. A little help please ...

With the way they want us here to limit the number of unnecessary whistles, ie don't whistle subs in(unless timer is asleep), I don't see the need to whistle the end of the period either when its obvious that the whistle isnt needed.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm not putting whistle on the play until it is dead. That means immediately if the ball is still in the shooter's hand when time expires. A legal shot in mid-flight is not getting a whistle from me. I will hit my whistle the shot goes through the basket or when it is obvious that the shot is no good.

100% correct as there could be a rebounding foul while the ball is still live during the try. If IUgrad has already blown his whistle, people are going to ask what his whistle was for and how does that impact the subsequent foul call.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

100% correct as there could be a rebounding foul while the ball is still live during the try. If IUgrad has already blown his whistle, people are going to ask what his whistle was for and how does that impact the subsequent foul call.

And all easily explainable to any coach Nevada, IF it were to get to that point. You are giving hypotheticals and I'm dealing with the play at hand. I personally did not 'make up' the mechanic I use for end of quarters, rather came from veteran HS, state level officials that I had as mentors when I first started. I'm not saying to anyone they have to do it my way, I'm just throwing it out there as an option, something to think about, maybe something to try.

IMO, had the T in the OP attempted to put a whistle to the horn, it could have possibly forced his cognitive side to come to the correct conclusion that the ball was clearly out of the shooter's hand at the time the horn sounded. Rather, it looks like perhaps he used the technique as espoused by you and BNR, which is completely fine. However, the end result for the T, at least in this particular circumstance, is that he got it wrong.

[Texref]

IUGrad if that is what is done in your area, then by all means blow your whistle when the horn goes. There is not one person that has replied that agrees with that "mechanic" as all it does is add confusion. The only time your whistle should coincide with the horn nm is if you are blowing the shot dead, otherwise, as has been stated previously, your whistle should not come until the try is good or is obvious it will be missed.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Texref

IUGrad if that is what is done in your area, then by all means blow your whistle when the horn goes. There is not one person that has replied that agrees with that "mechanic" as all it does is add confusion. The only time your whistle should coincide with the horn nm is if you are blowing the shot dead, otherwise, as has been stated previously, your whistle should not come until the try is good or is obvious it will be missed.

As I believe it was stated earlier, the FED has not come forth with how a whistle should end a quarter, so what you state is your opinion for HS ball and I agree we all need to try to do things as they are done in our own respective areas.

I can just tell you that in 18+ years I have not had one case of added confusion. If anything it has only added clarity, as I've been a part of my fair share of 'buzzer beaters'/shots taken close to the horn, and I have never left the court with the confusion I see in the OP or with a coach still wondering why I counted the basket or why I waved it off. It just simply has never happened.

You have every right to add conjecture as to what 'might' happen with my "mechanic", but at the same time, I can give actual testimony of 18+ years of using it.

Maybe you would be willing to put your two cents as to why there was so much confusion at the end of this OP video and if you think it was the correct call?

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

As I believe it was stated earlier, the FED has not come forth with how a whistle should end a quarter, so what you state is your opinion for HS ball and I agree we all need to try to do things as they are done in our own respective areas.

I can just tell you that in 18+ years I have not had one case of added confusion. If anything it has only added clarity, as I've been a part of my fair share of 'buzzer beaters'/shots taken close to the horn, and I have never left the court with the confusion I see in the OP or with a coach still wondering why I counted the basket or why I waved it off. It just simply has never happened.

You have every right to add conjecture as to what 'might' happen with my "mechanic", but at the same time, I can give actual testimony of 18+ years of using it.

Maybe you would be willing to put your two cents as to why there was so much confusion at the end of this OP video and if you think it was the correct call?

Just to be clear, if the ball leaves the shooter's hand before the horn sounds, you blow your whistle immediately when the horn sounds? As others have said, if that is acceptable in your area, do what works for you.

But I would encourage other readers here to NOT do that. I've worked in multiple states and multiple organizations and this would not be seen as an acceptable mechanic in any of them. I do not see any benefit from using this mechanic but see significant room for argument, questioning and confusion.

My approach is similar to BNR - if the ball is in the shooters hand at time of horn, blow the whistle immediately. If the ball has been released before the horn, wait until the ball has gone in or is clearly unsuccessful. Then blow the whistle. This is the expected mechanic everywhere I have worked.

There will always be the possibility of argument, but no one is confused by this sequence. Even in the video: No one is confused about the ruling; they question the accuracy of the call

[jeremy341a]

We do it here the same as jpgc99 has described. I couldn't imagine hitting my whistle while a shot that would be counted is still in flight.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

Just to be clear, if the ball leaves the shooter's hand before the horn sounds, you blow your whistle immediately when the horn sounds? As others have said, if that is acceptable in your area, do what works for you.

Yes, because it adds clarity for me as to the location of ball at the time I blow my whistle. I believe it enhances cognitive awareness to what needs absolute attention, the location of the ball at the time the horn sounds. The mechanics I have chosen to use over the past 18+ years are for one reason only, to put myself in the best situation possible to get the play correct and I believe this particular one has never let me down and it has never left a coach (winning or losing) in a state of confusion.

The calling official waited a full second, if not longer, to blow his whistle after the horn, try for goal was over, and still waves it off??

Now THAT is added confusion....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

As I believe it was stated earlier, the FED has not come forth with how a whistle should end a quarter, so what you state is your opinion for HS ball and I agree we all need to try to do things as they are done in our own respective areas.

I can just tell you that in 18+ years I have not had one case of added confusion. If anything it has only added clarity, as I've been a part of my fair share of 'buzzer beaters'/shots taken close to the horn, and I have never left the court with the confusion I see in the OP or with a coach still wondering why I counted the basket or why I waved it off. It just simply has never happened.
...

Doing it my way I've never had confusion either, so the early whistle procedure would have absolutely zero value added and only causes confusion in the places I work. I've done quite a few games where a partner blew the whistle while the shot was in the air and clearly released before time expired, and everyone thought that meant they were waving off the shot.

And there was no confusion in the OP, everyone knew he waved off the basket. Your procedure actually has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in the video.

[referee99]

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Doing it my way I've never had confusion either, so the early whistle procedure would have absolutely zero value added and only causes confusion in the places I work. I've done quite a few games where a partner blew the whistle while the shot was in the air and clearly released before time expired, and everyone thought that meant they were waving off the shot.

And there was no confusion in the OP, everyone knew he waved off the basket. Your procedure actually has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in the video.

There is absolute confusion as the whistle and wave off were after the ball when through the basket. If he was waving it off from the get go, should we not have been hearing a whistle a little sooner? That is where the confusion comes in. To be honest, I don't think there is much dispute that the ball was out of the shooter's hand when the horn sounds.

A whistle while the ball is in the air, whether at the end of a quarter or on an off-ball foul during the game, mean the exact same thing. Some understand that, others don't, that's not a surprise. Just because 'everyone' thinks something, doesn't really matter does it.

The fact that you cannot connect the dots with what I'm saying and how it relates to the OP, doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you don't see it, and frankly I'm not surprised.

And for the record, I've never once said that my method is best or the only way to handle things. It is only how I handle this situation, and that it has been very effective for me. I have only offered up a suggestion, something to consider, maybe try it in a lower level game and make a decision from there, or maybe just disregard it altogether, whatever..... Everyone here is a big person and can make there own decision and judgment on what's best for him/her.

There are officials out there, and I've worked with many, that have the mechanic of not having a whistle at all to end a quarter.The fact is the FED has not spelled out a standard mechanic or procedure for a whistle end of quarters, so I don't see where anyone, especially here, has absolute authority to say what is the correct mechanic/procedure and what isn't.