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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 09:25am
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Red face CE 2.10.1 Situation L - but in reverse

Girls Freshman, 2-person last night.

I am Trail in a helter-skelter kind of game. V team gathers rebound in their backcourt with a few seconds left and they start a fast break. There is a quick turnover and then a shot by Home team, near the 3 pt line. I am straight lined with players between me and the shot. I signal 3 pt attempt and a made FG. Buzzer goes off. Visiting coach asks about it and says the girl was a foot and a half inside the line. I ask my partner what he had and he had no look at all.

Here's the issue: I then asked the table if they saw the shot and could give assistance. Table says she was inside the arc. Changed it to a two and explained it to both coaches. Correct or Incorrect?



"2.10.1 SITUATION L:

A1 jumps and releases a try for goal apparently from behind the three-point line. The try is successful. The covering official does not indicate a three-point try and does not signal three points after the goal. The Team A coach rushes to the table and requests a 60-second time-out to discuss a correctable error. It is determined neither official clearly observed A1’s location before he/she jumped to try.

RULING: No change can be made and two points are properly scored. The 60-second time-out remains charged to Team A. (5-8-4)"

Last edited by dsqrddgd909; Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 10:24am.
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 10:34am
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It seems that you answered your own question. The responsibility to rule a shot as either a 2 point try or a 3 point try rests on the floor officials.

Now, if it is a question of the floor officials not seeing/hearing the end of period signal, it is permissible for the R to get additional info from the timer, to then determine if a shot was away before the end of the period. Even in that case, the final decision is up to the R. That circumstance is covered in 2-13, and Case Book 2.13.

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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 10:41am
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The table is often biased. Yes, they work for us... but do not change something you saw or did not see based on their input unless it's clock related.

You would not call a foul that only they saw, would you? Or a step out of bounds?
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 11:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 View Post
I am straight lined with players between me and the shot. I signal 3 pt attempt and a made FG.
What is the guidance to refs on signalling a 3pt shot without a clear view? Only if you're sure? Best guess?
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 11:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
What is the guidance to refs on signalling a 3pt shot without a clear view? Only if you're sure? Best guess?
Only if a three pointer would eliminate the possibility of the game going into OT.
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 12:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
The table is often biased. Yes, they work for us... but do not change something you saw or did not see based on their input unless it's clock related.

You would not call a foul that only they saw, would you? Or a step out of bounds?
If I know i have a neutral table, I'm ok with asking them on a 3 point shot. I've done it before and i'll do it again.
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 01:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
What is the guidance to refs on signalling a 3pt shot without a clear view? Only if you're sure? Best guess?
It's a 2, unless you know it's a 3.
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 02:15pm
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As a scorer if asked I will give my officials on the floor the best possible help I can in this situation.My job is to make sure the game is administered correctly and I take that role very seriously-if said call in this situation went against my team then so be it.
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 04:22pm
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Help From Table ???

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...elp-table.html
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 04:24pm
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Definite Knowledge, or Definite Knowledge Specific To The Situation ???

5.10.1 SITUATION D: There are six seconds left on the clock in the fourth quarter
and the ball is out of bounds in the possession of Team A. The throw-in by A1
touches the referee on the court and then goes across the court and out of
bounds. The timer permits two seconds to run off the clock. What recourse does
the coach of either team have in such situation? RULING: Either coach may step
to the scorer’s table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come
to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach’s
rule. The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches
and the timer about the matter; and if the referee has definite knowledge that
there were six seconds on the clock when the ball was awarded to Team A for the
throw-in, it is the responsibility of the referee to have the two seconds put back
on the clock. The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the
referee to gain definite information.
If there is no mistake or if it cannot be
rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second time-out. (5-11-
4 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Feb 20, 2015 at 04:34pm.
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 04:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
What is the guidance to refs on signalling a 3pt shot without a clear view? Only if you're sure? Best guess?
This is the real problem with what the official did.
He essentially made a call that he couldn't see. Signaling for a three-point try is no different from calling a foul--call what you see and see what you call.
In this case the official failed to adhere to that and it caused a problem. At least he was intelligent enough to ask for help from the table crew and they bailed him out.
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 08:20pm
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Table confirms basket made

Had the following this week:

I am at C and call blocking foul on V, staying with the action all the way to the floor. Since I did not see the ball go in I asked T if basket was good. He says no. I report the foul and award two shots. After the first shot (missed) I hear V coach ask "why is he getting another one if it went in" and at about the exact same time the H coach is saying "hey, we didn't get our two points". I call crew together and apparently neither the T or L actually looked up to watch the ball. Since both coaches agree the basket was good, the R consults the scorer to verify that he saw the ball go in and then decided based on all of the information available to award the basket. Using the table helped the R ultimately get the call right.
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 08:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
Had the following this week:

I am at C and call blocking foul on V, staying with the action all the way to the floor. Since I did not see the ball go in I asked T if basket was good. He says no. I report the foul and award two shots. After the first shot (missed) I hear V coach ask "why is he getting another one if it went in" and at about the exact same time the H coach is saying "hey, we didn't get our two points". I call crew together and apparently neither the T or L actually looked up to watch the ball. Since both coaches agree the basket was good, the R consults the scorer to verify that he saw the ball go in and then decided based on all of the information available to award the basket. Using the table helped the R ultimately get the call right.
The problem in this play was that your Trail told you "no" when he actually wasn't aware of whether or not the ball went in. Had he simply been honest and said, "I don't know" or "I didn't see it" you would have gone through the process of asking these other people BEFORE awarding any FTs and obtained the correct answer before continuing the game. That would have prevented the need to use the AP arrow in the situation in your game. I would be very upset with the Trail and he would hear about it following the game.
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Old Fri Feb 20, 2015, 09:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The problem in this play was that your Trail told you "no" when he actually wasn't aware of whether or not the ball went in. Had he simply been honest and said, "I don't know" or "I didn't see it" you would have gone through the process of asking these other people BEFORE awarding any FTs and obtained the correct answer before continuing the game. That would have prevented the need to use the AP arrow in the situation in your game. I would be very upset with the Trail and he would hear about it following the game.
Agreed. He got caught ball watching as the play transitioned from his area to mine. He acknowledged it at half time.

The H coach wasn't happy that we went to the AP arrow but it was the right procedure since an officials error meant no one rebounded.
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Old Sat Feb 21, 2015, 01:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I would be very upset with the Trail and he would hear about it following the game.
Of course he would, God forbid somebody does something to upset you.
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