Help From The Table ...

[BillyMac]

There appears to be rules support for seeking help from table officials for the location of the ball in relation to: a) the time; b) a foul being committed prior to, or after, the time expiring; and c) correcting a time/clock issue (definite information).

Is there any specific rules citation, casebook play, or other specific interpretation, for additional help, for example, whether, or not, a try hit a wire above the rim on a try; or whether, or not, a try went through the basket, for example, on a player fouled in the act of shooting?

[deecee]

Isn't someone at the table a 3rd or 4th official (depending on 2 or 3 man games)?

[just another ref]

It appeared that this was the first step in the ejection gone wrong game last night. End of the first quarter, visitors looking for the last shot. For some reason the horn did not sound when the clock hit zeros. From where I sat, it was not even close the shot was released significantly after the zeros, and another couple of seconds passed before the horn sounded. There was confusion. The officials huddled, and apparently had nothing. The R came over and consulted the table, after which he (correctly I think) waved off the shot. The coach took exception. There was a considerable discussion, at the end of which the coach bumped the R with her clipboard while making a wild gesture.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Isn't someone at the table a 3rd or 4th official (depending on 2 or 3 man games)?

Rules citation for help in addition to the help that I've already described, please?

[deecee]

SECTION 1 GAME AND TABLE OFFICIALS
ART. 1 . . .
The official’s uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt, black
pants, entirely black shoes and socks.
ART. 2 . . .
The game officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and
two umpires who shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer.
ART. 3 . . .
The scorer and timer shall be located at the scorer’s and timer’s
table on the side of the court. It is recommended that the official scorer and timer
be seated next to each other.

-- 2.1.2 - This should have you covered Billy.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by deecee

SECTION 1 GAME AND TABLE OFFICIALS
ART. 1 . . .
The official’s uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt, black
pants, entirely black shoes and socks.
ART. 2 . . .
The game officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and
two umpires who shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer.
ART. 3 . . .
The scorer and timer shall be located at the scorer’s and timer’s
table on the side of the court. It is recommended that the official scorer and timer
be seated next to each other.

-- 2.1.2 - This should have you covered Billy.

Case Book 5.10.1 D ". . . The timer ands scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite knowledge.)

Officials Manual 2.3.6 Last-Second Shot:
E. Final Decision: The Referee will make the final decision in case of disagreement or if it is necessary to consult the timer. The timer should only be consulted on a last-second tap or try when the red/LED light fails to illuminate aned or the timer's signal is not heard.

Also, see Rule Book 2-13 Timers' Equipment

[BillyMac]

Keep in mind that I'm looking at situations like whether, or not, a try hit a wire above the rim on a try; or whether, or not, a try went through the basket, for example, on a player fouled in the act of shooting?

[Scrapper1]

Years ago, I was working a 2-whistle JV college game with a partner who was sick and sleep-deprived. I was the Lead when a long jumper was taken which bounced high off the rim and then dropped in.

At the next TO, the table buzzed us over and said, "Was that a 2 or a 3?" My partner asked which shot they were talking about. The scorer said, "The one that bounced off the shot clock."

My response, "If it comes off the shot clock, it's a 2".

I don't think that really helps to answer your original question. But it's a story that I've always found funny. I think the answer to your actual question is that you cannot get information from the table about actions on the court. You can get help on timing issues, but I don't think the scorer and/or timer have any jurisdiction to offer rulings on floor violations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I think the answer to your actual question is that you cannot get information from the table about actions on the court. You can get help on timing issues, but I don't think the scorer and/or timer have any jurisdiction to offer rulings on floor violations.

Since 2007, only a few Forum members have interpreted that the table crew can help with floor violations, so I guess that you're right.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

My worst call of the year: Girls varsity. A few seconds to go in the first quarter. I'm the trail, responsible for the shot and the clock. A-1 attempts a three-pointer from my primary with no defender near her. Still no horn. I watch the flight of the ball. It clangs off the rim and bounces high above the rim. Still no horn. In a boys game, I would be watching for basket interference, but since it was a girls game, I decided to glance at the clock, due to the new definite time knowledge rule, in case of a rebounding foul. Tenths of a second left. I turn back to the ball and basket to see the ball enter the basket at the buzzer. I count the three-pointer to end the quarter.

A few Team B players politely tell me the ball hit a supporting wire. I can also tell from the reaction of the crowd that it probably hit the supporting wire. I go to my partner who was the lead, to see if he can help me. Of course he can't, which I already knew, because his responsibility is to keep his eyes down, looking for rebounding fouls. But I ask him anyway, to show the Team B head coach, who is questioning my call, that I'm trying to get as much information as possible. My partner says that he didn't see it hit the supporting wire. I tell the Team B head coach that I can't change a call without definite knowledge, and I say "I'm sorry if I missed it". He says, "Sorry doesn't take away the three points" and appears very upset with me.

In the locker room at halftime, the junior varsity officials, who had stayed to watch the varsity game, say that the ball did hit the supporting wire. Going onto the court after halftime, the Team B head coach apologizes for losing his temper, which never even approached the need for a technical foul. I accept his apology, and explain to him that I missed the ball touching the supporting wire because I had glanced at the clock to check the time. Before the second half started, all the members of the table crew, from both teams told me that the ball had hit the supporting wire.

My question: Since the scorers and the timer at the table are considered part of our officiating crew, could I have gone to them for help on this call at the end of the first quarter to correct the call ?

Should I have done anything different?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Keep in mind that I'm looking at situations like whether, or not, a try hit a wire above the rim on a try; or whether, or not, a try went through the basket, for example, on a player fouled in the act of shooting?

Do you have a citation saying the table personnel are to be used for these purposes?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Keep in mind that I'm looking at situations like whether, or not, a try hit a wire above the rim on a try; or whether, or not, a try went through the basket, for example, on a player fouled in the act of shooting?

If it's something you would discuss with your partner(s) about, then you can certainly use the table crew for additional information.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Do you have a citation saying the table personnel are to be used for these purposes?

No, not at this time. That's what I'm looking for, or something contrary to that.