false double foul question/ and block/charge

[mutantducky]

what are you talking about? I just said I did a CG call but was wondering when it would end, head/shoulders or ball in front. The one I made was an easy call. When the player is dribbling up the side and the defender is parallel it can be a tough one to call.


The first example can be a tough play to rule and it would be strange to call both fouls. I don't think I have. But I think it is reasonable to see it as part of one play especially if a player picks up the ball for the drive, gets fouled, takes another step and commits a charge. It is one play. Why would you ignore the charge? If I had that in a game, I think it would be silly if you ignore the charge and let's say it was a shot. the player scores despite committing a charge just because it happened he got fouled on the arm a tenth of a second before the charge. So to repeat. He is clearly fouled by the defense going for a shot. So right now you have a two shot foul. Maybe you haven't even blown your whistle yet, because right after, the player in completing the shot commits a charge. The ball goes in. Are you shooting the And 1? I think clearing the lane and shooting two fts could be the better option and a more sensible one. If it is a tool we can use,why not do it other than that it is so unusual. Like that ref who called that Colgate/Belmont violation. He made an unusual call but he did it by rule.

And by the way CC- I only called two Tech's this whole season(not one on a coach as I never had any serious issues with them and have had several coaches tell me and my partners that we were the best refs they had all season. I had two coaches who had the best JV teams in the league specially request me and another person I ref with to work the game they played against each other at the end of the season because they like the way we do things so I guess I'm doing pretty good.

[deecee]

Go ahead be the first to make this call. I don't think anyone here cares. It will be a first, and if caught on video, probably the last.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

what are you talking about? I just said I did a CG call but was wondering when it would end, head/shoulders or ball in front. The one I made was an easy call. When the player is dribbling up the side and the defender is parallel it can be a tough one to call.


The first example can be a tough play to rule and it would be strange to call both fouls. I don't think I have. But I think it is reasonable to see it as part of one play especially if a player picks up the ball for the drive, gets fouled, takes another step and commits a charge. It is one play. Why would you ignore the charge? If I had that in a game, I think it would be silly if you ignore the charge and let's say it was a shot. the player scores despite committing a charge just because it happened he got fouled on the arm a tenth of a second before the charge. So to repeat. He is clearly fouled by the defense going for a shot. So right now you have a two shot foul. Maybe you haven't even blown your whistle yet, because right after, the player in completing the shot commits a charge. The ball goes in. Are you shooting the And 1? I think clearing the lane and shooting two fts could be the better option and a more sensible one. If it is a tool we can use,why not do it other than that it is so unusual. Like that ref who called that Colgate/Belmont violation. He made an unusual call but he did it by rule.

And by the way CC- I only called two Tech's this whole season(not one on a coach as I never had any serious issues with them and have had several coaches tell me and my partners that we were the best refs they had all season. I had two coaches who had the best JV teams in the league specially request me and another person I ref with to work the game they played against each other at the end of the season because they like the way we do things so I guess I'm doing pretty good.

I owe you an apology. I thought CG = college game. I misread your post.

[mutantducky]

ok thx

But deecee

Why? Why not call it if the admittedly very unusual situation calls for it. Normally there is no issue when you call the first and ignore the second because you can separate them. But I genuinely had a play where it could have been called and I felt it would have been the most fair thing to do. Again, back to my point. Let's say there is three seconds left in the game. Coaches and fans are really into it.
A1 drives, gets fouled on the arm but as he completes his shot he commits a charge. So this is all one offensive play when the player had started his shot attempt. He makes the basket to put his team within one point. You have one Coach screaming for a charge. Are you going to just ignore the charging call and let the player shoot the FT to tie the game? You guys seem to be saying I should ignore the charge because no one would actually call both fouls. That just doesn't make sense at all to me. Why reward the offensive player with a potential three point play when he had to commit a charge to get the shot off?

Let me add a scenario to this. Say you do have two fouls, so you are doing two shots with the lane cleared then B's ball. But the charge means it is A1 fifth foul. Does A1 shoot or does the coach of Team A get to choose a substitute to shoot the fts?

[APG]

Does the rule book ever allow for a player that is supposed to be DQ'd to attempt their free throws prior to being replaced (assuming proper notification)?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by APG

Does the rule book ever allow for a player that is supposed to be DQ'd to attempt their free throws prior to being replaced (assuming proper notification)?

No. Why? (maybe I missed something in the thread)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

ok thx

But deecee

Why? Why not call it if the admittedly very unusual situation calls for it. Normally there is no issue when you call the first and ignore the second because you can separate them. But I genuinely had a play where it could have been called and I felt it would have been the most fair thing to do. Again, back to my point. Let's say there is three seconds left in the game. Coaches and fans are really into it.
A1 drives, gets fouled on the arm but as he completes his shot he commits a charge. So this is all one offensive play when the player had started his shot attempt. He makes the basket to put his team within one point. You have one Coach screaming for a charge. Are you going to just ignore the charging call and let the player shoot the FT to tie the game? You guys seem to be saying I should ignore the charge because no one would actually call both fouls. That just doesn't make sense at all to me. Why reward the offensive player with a potential three point play when he had to commit a charge to get the shot off?

Let me add a scenario to this. Say you do have two fouls, so you are doing two shots with the lane cleared then B's ball. But the charge means it is A1 fifth foul. Does A1 shoot or does the coach of Team A get to choose a substitute to shoot the fts?

4.19.9 Situation A It's in the books. I've never seen this called. I've seen it once when it should have been called.

[deecee]

I know this is in the case book. I don't know in real life if this would actually get called.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4.19.9 Situation A

4.19.9 SITUATION A: A1 leaps high and is fouled by B1 as he/she taps the ball
which subsequently goes through A’s basket. A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor.
RULING: This is a false double foul. The foul by B1 does not cause the ball to
become dead. However, the player-control foul by A1 does cause the ball to
become dead and also dictates that no goal can be scored. Since the goal is not
scored, A1 is awarded two free throws for the foul by B1. No players are allowed
along the lane as Team B will be awarded the ball following the last free throw. If
the last throw is successful, the throw-in is from anywhere along the end line. If
the last throw is unsuccessful, the throw-in is from a designated spot nearest the
foul. (4-1; 4-11; 4-41-1; 6-7-7 Exception c: 6-7-4; 7-5-4a)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

A1 drives, gets fouled on the arm but as he completes his shot he commits a charge. So this is all one offensive play when the player had started his shot attempt. He makes the basket to put his team within one point. You have one Coach screaming for a charge. Are you going to just ignore the charging call and let the player shoot the FT to tie the game? You guys seem to be saying I should ignore the charge because no one would actually call both fouls. That just doesn't make sense at all to me. Why reward the offensive player with a potential three point play when he had to commit a charge to get the shot off?

I understand it doesn't make sense to you right now. It will, over time.

In your play, I'm likely to go with the PC call and ignore the contact on the shot as incidental.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

Like that ref who called that Colgate/Belmont violation. He made an unusual call but he did it by rule.

These aren't even remotely the same thing.

[APG]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

ok thx
Let me add a scenario to this. Say you do have two fouls, so you are doing two shots with the lane cleared then B's ball. But the charge means it is A1 fifth foul. Does A1 shoot or does the coach of Team A get to choose a substitute to shoot the fts?

Originally Posted by APG

Does the rule book ever allow for a player that is supposed to be DQ'd to attempt their free throws prior to being replaced (assuming proper notification)?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No. Why? (maybe I missed something in the thread)

It was a question directed toward mutant...to help answer his question.

[BryanV21]

Let's say there is three seconds left in the game. Coaches and fans are really into it.

Why does this matter?

I don't mean to say that the time of the game never affects the way a game is called, but adding this to the situation should not change the answer.