High elbows with contact

[Chris Whitten]

I called a recent HS game with a college official who also calls some HS ball. We had never called together before. Here is what we ran into:

First half: A1 while attempting to dribble past B1 in the backcourt makes contact to B1's jaw with a high elbow. Partner calls a PC foul on A1. At halftime, he expresses that the contact was to the jaw and he probably should have called it a TF.

Fast forward to second half when A1 (same player) gets trapped just over the centerline by B2 and B3. A1 rips through once with elbows high and contacts B2 in the mouth with an elbow. Partner is again the calling official.

This is where I need some help with our options under NFHS rules. I'm afraid what we did was a hybrid between NCAA and NFHS rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten

At halftime, he expresses that the contact was to the jaw and he probably should have called it a TF.

A technical foul for illegal contact during a live ball?

[constable]

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten

I called a recent HS game with a college official who also calls some HS ball. We had never called together before. Here is what we ran into:

First half: A1 while attempting to dribble past B1 in the backcourt makes contact to B1's jaw with a high elbow. Partner calls a PC foul on A1. At halftime, he expresses that the contact was to the jaw and he probably should have called it a TF.

Fast forward to second half when A1 (same player) gets trapped just over the centerline by B2 and B3. A1 rips through once with elbows high and contacts B2 in the mouth with an elbow. Partner is again the calling official.

This is where I need some help with our options under NFHS rules. I'm afraid what we did was a hybrid between NCAA and NFHS rules.

You have 3 options.
1. Player Control.
2. Intentional Personal Foul
3. Flagrant Personal Foul.

A technical foul in NFHS rules is not permissible.

[SNIPERBBB]

Need more info on the first one but the second should be a minimum INT

2012‐2013 Points of Emphasis

2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations, the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties:

Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or a flagrant personal foul.

[TimTaylor]

Had one in a double OT game last night.

A1 driving the lane blowing by B1.... B2 coming over late to help takes a futile swipe, misses the ball and clotheslines A1 sending her to the floor. We went with the intentional foul because of the severity of contact.

[bbman]

If this elbow to the face is determined to be flagrant, would that be an automatic disqualification?

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by bbman

If this elbow to the face is determined to be flagrant, would that be an automatic disqualification?

Yes.

[bbman]

Would all flagrant fouls be automatic disqualification?

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by bbman

Would all flagrant fouls be automatic disqualification?

Yup, flagrant carry a penalty of two FTs and the ball to the offended team, as well as ejection of the guilty party

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bbman

Would all flagrant fouls be automatic disqualification?

Don't confuse the HS "flagrant" with the NCAA "flagrant"

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Don't confuse the HS "flagrant" with the NCAA "flagrant"

Agree. This is an oversimplification, but for the most part:

NFHS intentional personal = NCAA flagrant 1
NFHS flagrant personal = NCAA flagrant 2 personal
NFHS intentional technical = NCAA contact dead ball technical
NFHS flagrant technical = NCAA flagrant 2 technical

[bbman]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Don't confuse the HS "flagrant" with the NCAA "flagrant"

So again, all flagrant fouls in high school are automatic DQ?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bbman

So again, all flagrant fouls in high school are automatic DQ?

Yes.

In college it's "all flagrant 2 fouls are automatic DQ + ejection."

Worth noting here that ejections in NFHS games are not usually included with players because they are minors (liability issue to have them off on their own). If an individual does need to leave the visual confines to avoid an escalating situation, he/she should be supervised by an adult for the remainder of the game.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Yes.

In college it's "all flagrant 2 fouls are automatic DQ + ejection."

Worth noting here that ejections in NFHS games are not usually included with players because they are minors (liability issue to have them off on their own). If an individual does need to leave the visual confines to avoid an escalating situation, he/she should be supervised by an adult for the remainder of the game.

I've always known this to be true, and I know its been a discussion on this board in the last month or so, but do you know where in the rule book this is cited? Was looking for it the other day when I explained it to a fellow official, but I couldn't find where it actually says that.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I've always known this to be true, and I know its been a discussion on this board in the last month or so, but do you know where in the rule book this is cited? Was looking for it the other day when I explained it to a fellow official, but I couldn't find where it actually says that.

10-3 sends dq player to team bench. case play 10.5 says you can require team to escort him to locker room if need be...incite crowd etc. thx