The Elbows

[The_Rookie]

Hello,

Need clarification on player using elbow to swing after pulling down a rebound to create space. Not a fast a furious elbow and no contact with another player.

Do I have anything here?

Had a coach moaning about this at least 3 times during a Frosh-Soph Girls game.

[BillyMac]

4-24-8: It is not legal to swing arms and elbows excessively. This occurs
when:
a. Arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and
the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the
body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot.
b. The aggressiveness with which the arms and elbows are swung could
cause injury to another player if contacted.
Using this description as a basis, an official will promptly and unhesitatingly
rule such action with arms and elbows a violation.

9.13.1 SITUATION: The ball has been released on a field-goal try or tap by A1
towards A's basket: (a) A2, or (b) B1, excessively swings arm(s) or elbow(s)
without contacting an opponent. The ball goes through the basket. RULING: In
(a), the official will sound the whistle immediately for a violation. The ball is dead,
the goal is not scored. In (b), the ball is dead when the try ends. The goal is
scored and Team A is awarded a throw-in at the spot closest to the violation. (6-
7-9 Exception d)

[jeffpea]

if there's no contact, call a violation...that should stop it...if it doesn't - call a violation each and every time it happens...

if there's contact, call a foul (in NCAA-M - could be common foul, intentional, or flagrant depending on where the contact occured on defenders' body).

either way - the only thing that will stop this action is for you to blow the whistle...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

If there's contact, call a foul.

Remember if the rebounder has the ball, it's a player control foul, although you could deem it to be an intentional excessive contact personal foul, or, in extreme circumstances, a flagrant personal foul, even in a high school game.

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

if there's no contact, call a violation...that should stop it...if it doesn't - call a violation each and every time it happens...

if there's contact, call a foul (in NCAA-M - could be common foul, intentional, or flagrant depending on where the contact occured on defenders' body).

either way - the only thing that will stop this action is for you to blow the whistle...

Just to clarify: one is a VIOLATION (No Contact) and with Contact a Foul?

Has to be Excessive in the judgement of the official?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Remember if the rebounder has the ball, it's a player control foul, although you could deem it to be an intentional excessive contact personal foul, or, in extreme circumstances, a flagrant personal foul, even in a high school game.

Player control foul: No free throws.
Intentional excessive contact personal foul: Free throws, or not ???
Flagrant personal foul: Free throws, or not ???

I'm thinking no free throws for all three (player control), but I'm 99% sure that I'm not 100% sure. I'm close, but I want a cigar.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Player control foul: No free throws.
Intentional excessive contact personal foul: Free throws, or not ???
Flagrant personal foul: Free throws, or not ???

I'm thinking no free throws for all three (player control), but I'm 99% sure that I'm not 100% sure. I'm close, but I want a cigar.

If deemed intentional or flagrant, it is no longer a player control foul, which is a common foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If deemed intentional or flagrant, it is no longer a player control foul, which is a common foul.

Man, I didn't even come close. No cigar for me.

Intentional: Two free throws for the fouled player, no rebounders, and the ball at the spot closest to the foul.

Flagrant: Player disqualified, two free throws for the fouled player, no rebounders, and the ball at the spot closest to the foul.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

Just to clarify: one is a VIOLATION (No Contact) and with Contact a Foul?

Has to be Excessive in the judgement of the official?

A1 rebounds the ball, swings elbows excessively and there is NO CONTACT w/ defender = a violation (ball to awarded to Team B at spot nearest where violation occurred).

A1 rebounds the ball, swings elbows and there is CONTACT w/ defender = player control foul (ball to be awarded to Team B at spot nearest to where foul occurred; no FT's shot as it is a team control foul).

A1 rebounds the ball, swings elbows and makes EXCESSIVE CONTACT w/ defender = intentional personal foul (B2 shoots 2 FT's and ball is awarded to Team B at spot nearest where foul occurred). Keep in mind that an intentional foul can be called either based on intent to foul (no attempt to play the ball) OR excessive contact.

A1 rebounds the ball, swings elbows in a COMBATIVE manner with SEVERE CONTACT of defender = flagrant personal foul (B2 shoots 2 FT's, A1 is ejected, and ball awarded to Team B at spot nearest to where foul occurred).


Remember that you shoot 2 FT's on EVERY intentional foul called...EXCEPT when a player is fould in the act of shooting a 3pt shot - then he/she gets 3 shots...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

A1 rebounds the ball, swings elbows excessively and there is NO CONTACT w/ defender = a violation (ball to awarded to Team B at spot nearest where violation occurred).

A1 rebounds the ball, swings elbows and there is CONTACT w/ defender = player control foul (ball to be awarded to Team B at spot nearest to where foul occurred; no FT's shot as it is a team control foul).

A1 rebounds the ball, swings elbows and makes EXCESSIVE CONTACT w/ defender = intentional personal foul (B2 shoots 2 FT's and ball is awarded to Team B at spot nearest where foul occurred). Keep in mind that an intentional foul can be called either based on intent to foul (no attempt to play the ball) OR excessive contact.

A1 rebounds the ball, swings elbows in a COMBATIVE manner with SEVERE CONTACT of defender = flagrant personal foul (B2 shoots 2 FT's, A1 is ejected, and ball awarded to Team B at spot nearest to where foul occurred).


Remember that you shoot 2 FT's on EVERY intentional foul called...EXCEPT when a player is fould in the act of shooting a 3pt shot - then he/she gets 3 shots...

Little bit troubled by this word, which is not a part of the definition. I would say it is the exception and not the rule, but a flagrant foul can be committed by accident.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

A1 is ejected.

Be careful here:

The penalty for a single flagrant personal or flagrant technical foul charged to a player is two free throws and disqualification plus awarding the ball to the opponents for a throw-in.

A single flagrant foul, the second direct technical foul or the third technical (any combination of direct or indirect) charged to the head coach results in disqualification and ejection. Ejected adult bench personnel shall leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area immediately and are prohibited from any further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game. Failure to comply with the rules of ejection may result in the game being forfeited.

We disqualify players.
We eject coaches.
Not like in the olden days. Too many torn up locker rooms.

[bigdog5142]

Situation from last night.

A1 receives ball just over half-court. Keeps ball high over head and turns for face toward basket. As he turns, B1 closes to defend and get hit with an incidental elbow in the face. B1 goes down and stays down. No malicious intent, C rules incidental contact and no foul called. Play stopped to attend to injury.

Right call?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

Has to be Excessive in the judgement of the official?

This is the key for the violation to be called. "Normal" movement of the elbows, as while legally pivoting, is not a violation. In order to call the violation, you need "excessive" swinging with NO contact on an opponent. Excessive is defined as moving faster than the torso of the player.

Non-excessive motion, with no contact -- no violation, play on.
Non-excessive motion, with contact -- not a violation, but likely a player control foul.
Excessive motion, with no contact -- violation.
Excessive motion, with contact -- not a violation, but likely an intentional foul or flagrant foul.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bigdog5142

No malicious intent, C rules incidental contact and no foul called. Play stopped to attend to injury.

Right call?

Incidental contact can indeed sometimes be severe. But the key to whether the contact in this particular play is incidental is whether or not the player with ball remained within his vertical plane. If those elbows are extended outside the width of his torso, then I would say that he is responsible for the contact.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Incidental contact can indeed sometimes be severe. But the key to whether the contact in this particular play is incidental is whether or not the player with ball remained within his vertical plane. If those elbows are extended outside the width of his torso, then I would say that he is responsible for the contact.

I called a PC foul in a HS game a couple of weeks ago where the very tall center rebounded the ball and then clipped the opponent with his elbow as he swung the ball around. The coach started in with "we teach him that way." My partner, who was a girls varsity coach a decade ago, mentioned in the locker room that the coach actually teaches it wrong then.

There is no way that an elbow swing at head height, as long as the defender isn't violating the vertical plane of the player with the ball, is incidental.