The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 07:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Dixie
Posts: 71
High elbows with contact

I called a recent HS game with a college official who also calls some HS ball. We had never called together before. Here is what we ran into:

First half: A1 while attempting to dribble past B1 in the backcourt makes contact to B1's jaw with a high elbow. Partner calls a PC foul on A1. At halftime, he expresses that the contact was to the jaw and he probably should have called it a TF.

Fast forward to second half when A1 (same player) gets trapped just over the centerline by B2 and B3. A1 rips through once with elbows high and contacts B2 in the mouth with an elbow. Partner is again the calling official.

This is where I need some help with our options under NFHS rules. I'm afraid what we did was a hybrid between NCAA and NFHS rules.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 07:15pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,460
Impossible In NFHS Game ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Whitten View Post
At halftime, he expresses that the contact was to the jaw and he probably should have called it a TF.
A technical foul for illegal contact during a live ball?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 07:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Whitten View Post
I called a recent HS game with a college official who also calls some HS ball. We had never called together before. Here is what we ran into:

First half: A1 while attempting to dribble past B1 in the backcourt makes contact to B1's jaw with a high elbow. Partner calls a PC foul on A1. At halftime, he expresses that the contact was to the jaw and he probably should have called it a TF.

Fast forward to second half when A1 (same player) gets trapped just over the centerline by B2 and B3. A1 rips through once with elbows high and contacts B2 in the mouth with an elbow. Partner is again the calling official.

This is where I need some help with our options under NFHS rules. I'm afraid what we did was a hybrid between NCAA and NFHS rules.
You have 3 options.
1. Player Control.
2. Intentional Personal Foul
3. Flagrant Personal Foul.

A technical foul in NFHS rules is not permissible.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 07:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SE Ohio
Posts: 1,044
Need more info on the first one but the second should be a minimum INT

2012‐2013 Points of Emphasis

2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations, the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties:

Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or a flagrant personal foul.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 09:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,273
Had one in a double OT game last night.

A1 driving the lane blowing by B1.... B2 coming over late to help takes a futile swipe, misses the ball and clotheslines A1 sending her to the floor. We went with the intentional foul because of the severity of contact.
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 10:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 109
If this elbow to the face is determined to be flagrant, would that be an automatic disqualification?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 10:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 673
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbman View Post
If this elbow to the face is determined to be flagrant, would that be an automatic disqualification?
Yes.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 10:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 109
Would all flagrant fouls be automatic disqualification?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 10:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 673
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbman View Post
Would all flagrant fouls be automatic disqualification?
Yup, flagrant carry a penalty of two FTs and the ball to the offended team, as well as ejection of the guilty party
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 07, 2015, 11:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbman View Post
Would all flagrant fouls be automatic disqualification?
Don't confuse the HS "flagrant" with the NCAA "flagrant"
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 08, 2015, 08:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,522
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Don't confuse the HS "flagrant" with the NCAA "flagrant"
Agree. This is an oversimplification, but for the most part:

NFHS intentional personal = NCAA flagrant 1
NFHS flagrant personal = NCAA flagrant 2 personal
NFHS intentional technical = NCAA contact dead ball technical
NFHS flagrant technical = NCAA flagrant 2 technical
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 08, 2015, 04:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Don't confuse the HS "flagrant" with the NCAA "flagrant"
So again, all flagrant fouls in high school are automatic DQ?
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 08, 2015, 04:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,522
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbman View Post
So again, all flagrant fouls in high school are automatic DQ?
Yes.

In college it's "all flagrant 2 fouls are automatic DQ + ejection."

Worth noting here that ejections in NFHS games are not usually included with players because they are minors (liability issue to have them off on their own). If an individual does need to leave the visual confines to avoid an escalating situation, he/she should be supervised by an adult for the remainder of the game.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 08, 2015, 04:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 673
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Yes.

In college it's "all flagrant 2 fouls are automatic DQ + ejection."

Worth noting here that ejections in NFHS games are not usually included with players because they are minors (liability issue to have them off on their own). If an individual does need to leave the visual confines to avoid an escalating situation, he/she should be supervised by an adult for the remainder of the game.
I've always known this to be true, and I know its been a discussion on this board in the last month or so, but do you know where in the rule book this is cited? Was looking for it the other day when I explained it to a fellow official, but I couldn't find where it actually says that.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 08, 2015, 07:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
I've always known this to be true, and I know its been a discussion on this board in the last month or so, but do you know where in the rule book this is cited? Was looking for it the other day when I explained it to a fellow official, but I couldn't find where it actually says that.
10-3 sends dq player to team bench. case play 10.5 says you can require team to escort him to locker room if need be...incite crowd etc. thx
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Elbows/Contact to the Head splitveer Basketball 7 Mon Feb 11, 2013 01:44am
The Elbows The_Rookie Basketball 14 Sat Feb 05, 2011 02:09pm
elbows jevaque Basketball 7 Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:00pm
excessively swinging arms/elbows w/ out contact j51969 Basketball 10 Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:23pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1