The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NB/PEI, Canada
Posts: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
Illegal contact is ALWAYS a foul...but all contact isn't illegal. Contact is either illegal or incidental.
We may be dealing with semantics issue here.

But if a player violates the legal guarding position and cylinder rules and creates contact, that by definition would be illegal contact. We need to judge whether that illegal contact was incidental or impacts the play. Just as all touches are not fouls, the touching does violate the rules in regards to their cylinders.

As i said we may be parsing semantics here, I think we are advocating the same thing. If you break a rule in making contact that is illegal, if we judge that contact to be sufficient to warrant a foul we call it. Saying it wasn't illegal contact would indicate a rule/guideline was not violated. The action is either within the rules or without, fouls are determined based on rules and application of the Tower Principle. Deciding contact was incidental doesn't make the action within the rules, just acceptable based on our judgement of advantage disadvantage.

ie. Why they went to 4 automatics. These types of illegal contact were being based on as incidental, now the illegal action = foul automatically.
__________________
Coach: Hey ref I'll make sure you can get out of here right after the game!

Me: Thanks, but why the big rush.

Coach: Oh I thought you must have a big date . . .we're not the only ones your planning on F$%&ing tonite are we!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
We may be dealing with semantics issue here.

But if a player violates the legal guarding position and cylinder rules and creates contact, that by definition would be illegal contact. We need to judge whether that illegal contact was incidental or impacts the play. Just as all touches are not fouls, the touching does violate the rules in regards to their cylinders.

As i said we may be parsing semantics here, I think we are advocating the same thing. If you break a rule in making contact that is illegal, if we judge that contact to be sufficient to warrant a foul we call it. Saying it wasn't illegal contact would indicate a rule/guideline was not violated. The action is either within the rules or without, fouls are determined based on rules and application of the Tower Principle. Deciding contact was incidental doesn't make the action within the rules, just acceptable based on our judgement of advantage disadvantage.

ie. Why they went to 4 automatics. These types of illegal contact were being based on as incidental, now the illegal action = foul automatically.
no, contact is illegal or incidental. Incidental contact is never illegal. They went to the four automatics because too many were ruling the contact incidental/legal.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 04:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NB/PEI, Canada
Posts: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
no, contact is illegal or incidental. Incidental contact is never illegal. They went to the four automatics because too many were ruling the contact incidental/legal.
I think we are just dealing with semantics here. Illegal = contrary to the rules.


Contact is judged as illegal based on rule and tower principle by us calling fouls, contact can violate the rules but be deemed incidental based on principles.

By definition of the word illegal, though the second an action is contrary to the statues/laws or contrary to rules and regulations it is illegal.

Splitting hairs at this point.
__________________
Coach: Hey ref I'll make sure you can get out of here right after the game!

Me: Thanks, but why the big rush.

Coach: Oh I thought you must have a big date . . .we're not the only ones your planning on F$%&ing tonite are we!
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
I think we are just dealing with semantics here. Illegal = contrary to the rules.


Contact is judged as illegal based on rule and tower principle by us calling fouls, contact can violate the rules but be deemed incidental based on principles.

By definition of the word illegal, though the second an action is contrary to the statues/laws or contrary to rules and regulations it is illegal.

Splitting hairs at this point.
Not really. If choose to not call a foul, you have determined that the play was LEGAL in the context of the entire set of rules....including the advantage/disadvantage/incidental elements. The action could have been illegal if it had an effect on the play (RSBQ, for example) but if it doesn't, then it is not illegal.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 01, 2015, 08:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NB/PEI, Canada
Posts: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Not really. If choose to not call a foul, you have determined that the play was LEGAL in the context of the entire set of rules....including the advantage/disadvantage/incidental elements. The action could have been illegal if it had an effect on the play (RSBQ, for example) but if it doesn't, then it is not illegal.
A) I get that. I guess my point was that in the context of the OP is that the term illegal by definition is contrary to the rules/regulations.

Since the average person is not going to clinics or reading the interps, but at the very best reading or hearing a rule from the book at the worst getting 2nd or 3rd hand myths. In the case of the OP the actions of the opposing team go against the rules as written in the section on fouling. However the determination of whether a foul is called has many more factors then are listed word for word in just one section of the rule book. So someone who has a limited or literal understanding of the rule is watching something they could quite literally argue as illegal.

B) I don't think I'm ever determing incidental contact was "legal" just passing on it. I think a better analogy might be to compare it to actual legal situations where someone is speeding but only by a couple of MPH's or a criminal does something but because of lack of evidence they don't get prosecuted. THis doesn't mean they didn't do something illegal it means that they weren't charged, fined or prosecuted. In regards to the OP this is more inline with the coaches complaint and issues then trying to explain how an action is legal this time but not legal that time.
__________________
Coach: Hey ref I'll make sure you can get out of here right after the game!

Me: Thanks, but why the big rush.

Coach: Oh I thought you must have a big date . . .we're not the only ones your planning on F$%&ing tonite are we!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crazy play in youth game bossman72 Football 13 Mon Jan 24, 2011 04:43pm
NBA type play in youth ball eastdavis Basketball 34 Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:18pm
Thank you to all the refs of youth basketball! coachgbert Basketball 9 Wed Dec 22, 2004 02:16am
Good website for beginning or youth league refs Jimgolf Basketball 4 Wed Jun 23, 2004 05:19pm
looking for youth basketball refs in Austin, TX duckpluck Basketball 3 Thu Nov 01, 2001 11:15pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:00pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1