Can you flex too much?

[jeremy341a]

Friday night a team was playing 2-3. The offensive team would swing the ball very quickly and have their post players running an x patter so that one would be high post and one low post. sometimes the low post would step out to the short corner. This would have us flexing every 4 sec or so. Some times we would flex 5 or more times in a 30 second possession.

[jTheUmp]

2-person or 3-person?

Might just be me, but if I'm the L, I'm more likely to go back-and-forth in situations like this in 2-person than I am in 3-person, mainly because I don't want to get my C and T caught in a rotation when someone starts a try.

Yeah, that sometimes means you end up in a bad position as the 2-person L, but them's the breaks of 2-person officiating.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Friday night a team was playing 2-3. The offensive team would swing the ball very quickly and have their post players running an x patter so that one would be high post and one low post. sometimes the low post would step out to the short corner. This would have us flexing every 4 sec or so. Some times we would flex 5 or more times in a 30 second possession.

I'll assume 3 whistles. I flex often early, but when it becomes clear that they're doing a lot of skip passes and keeping the ball out of the paint, I tend to wait a bit more. I'll look for one of three things.

1. The C starts a 5 second count.
2. Someone starts dribbling in the C's primary.
3. The ball drops below the FT line.

These aren't perfect, but I don't know how much benefit is gained by continuously moving from one side of the lane to the other.

I'd be curious what others say, though.

[TriggerMN]

When I saw the topic, "Can you flex too much?", I thought it was supposed to be in the football forum and about Ed Hochuli.

[deecee]

zone defense i tend to be slower on rotating in both 2 or 3 person. I try and get deeper, but for the most part the defense doesn't really move to much.

I go when I need to go and stay when I need to stay. That being said, understanding the offense and defense goes a long way in knowing when to move.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'll assume 3 whistles. I flex often early, but when it becomes clear that they're doing a lot of skip passes and keeping the ball out of the paint, I tend to wait a bit more. I'll look for one of three things.

1. The C starts a 5 second count.
2. Someone starts dribbling in the C's primary.
3. The ball drops below the FT line.

These aren't perfect, but I don't know how much benefit is gained by continuously moving from one side of the lane to the other.

I'd be curious what others say, though.

I think that is excellent advice.

[APG]

Can one rotate too much? Definitely

But I'd be willing to bet at the high school level, that people under rotate...finding reason to NOT rotate. That's not the correct mind set IMO...gotta find reasons to rotate.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Friday night a team was playing 2-3. The offensive team would swing the ball very quickly and have their post players running an x patter so that one would be high post and one low post. sometimes the low post would step out to the short corner. This would have us flexing every 4 sec or so. Some times we would flex 5 or more times in a 30 second possession.

If the low-post opposite goes out to the short corner, that's a good reason to rotate.

Otherwise, just pinch the paint instead of a full rotation.

WTF is a flex?? I'll assuming you are talking about rotating (not switching either mind you, switching happens during a dead ball). If there is a zone of any kind and I am Lead I stay at close down the whole time. I don't rotate across, even if the ball has settled below the FTLE on C side -- the ball is very likely to swing back to the middle or skip pass to strong side. I only go across if there are 7 or more players over there or two defenders have started trapping the ball and I feel the ball will stay over there long enough for me to rotate. It's a feel when it comes down to it, but you can't go wrong under rotating with a zone. Sometimes you gotta referee from where you are.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AremRed

WTF is a flex?? I'll assuming you are talking about rotating (not switching either mind you, switching happens during a dead ball). If there is a zone of any kind and I am Lead I stay at close down the whole time. I don't rotate across, even if the ball has settled below the FTLE on C side -- the ball is very likely to swing back to the middle or skip pass to strong side. I only go across if there are 7 or more players over there or two defenders have started trapping the ball and I feel the ball will stay over there long enough for me to rotate. It's a feel when it comes down to it, but you can't go wrong under rotating with a zone. Sometimes you gotta referee from where you are.

You know what he meant by flex. DBAD.

The one time it goes down into a post player and you're in the closed down position not rotating "cause it's a zone" -- and force the C to officiate that post player...the crew is out of position. If you rotate once it's in the post, you'll be moving at the money shot...out of position.

It's OK to rotate multiple times in a possession and it's not a failure on your part to rotate over and then have to rotate back a few seconds later. Wait a beat, get a feel, then go.

Look for reasons to rotate. Immediate shot, immediate skip pass, drive to the bucket are 3 reasons not to rotate. Adam's advice is the best advice in this thread for someone wanting to understand 3-person and "when to rotate" the best.

Originally Posted by Rich

You know what he meant by flex. DBAD.

Insisting other referees only use rule book terminology is douchey? TIL.

Originally Posted by Rich

The one time it goes down into a post player and you're in the closed down position not rotating "cause it's a zone" -- and force the C to officiate that post player...the crew is out of position. If you rotate once it's in the post, you'll be moving at the money shot...out of position.

It's OK to rotate multiple times in a possession and it's not a failure on your part to rotate over and then have to rotate back a few seconds later. Wait a beat, get a feel, then go.

Look for reasons to rotate. Immediate shot, immediate skip pass, drive to the bucket are 3 reasons not to rotate. Adam's advice is the best advice in this thread for someone wanting to understand 3-person and "when to rotate" the best.

Another thing to consider is the strength of your crew. A strong C should be able to referee post play on his side by himself if the Lead is not quick enough to get over. If there is an inexperienced guy on the crew then perhaps be quicker to get to his side. I work with a lot of guys who start bailing from C as soon as the ball enters their area (don't do that BTW), so you gotta consider that if you are patient and don't rotate you might end up with two Trails (never a good thing) until old C gets his head out of his ass. It all depends.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Insisting other referees only use rule book terminology is douchey? TIL.

Oh, you thought I meant douche there?

Originally Posted by AremRed

Another thing to consider is the strength of your crew. A strong C should be able to referee post play on his side by himself if the Lead is not quick enough to get over. If there is an inexperienced guy on the crew then perhaps be quicker to get to his side. I work with a lot of guys who start bailing from C as soon as the ball enters their area (don't do that BTW), so you gotta consider that if you are patient and don't rotate you might end up with two Trails (never a good thing) until old C gets his head out of his ass. It all depends.

If the L gets over earlier, he's there and is the best person to officiate post play.

I find there's too many people who seemed bothered by a rotation and a rotation back -- those are the people who complain about people who rotate too much and, not coincidentally, don't rotate enough.

Consider: Player's posting up, opposite block. Ball's on the C's side, above the FT line. If I think there's a decent chance it's ending up in the post's hands there, I'm rotating over. If the ball's passed across the court to another guard up high, now I have the same setup I had a few seconds earlier, but reversed. Why is this a bad thing -- because I'm forcing the T and C to move or to be aware of where I am as the L? That's part of our job. And if that pass does come into the post...I'm there, with perfect position. If a player starts posting up on the other side ...wash, rinse, repeat...I rotate back over.

At the high school level, I'd rather see crews rotate more than try to give people more reasons to not rotate. Lots of HS officials don't need those -- they already don't rotate enough.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

You know what he meant by flex...

This is a really old term. I could see where people would not know what that meant anymore.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Yes you can "flex" or rotate too much. Usually if they are just passing the ball back and forth up top and no movement to dribble, drive or passing in the corner, those are times when you might want to wait a little bit.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is a really old term. I could see where people would not know what that meant anymore.

I didn't know what it meant explicitly, but I picked it up from context.