Contacts

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Hmmmm...
True enough -- 5-11-4 EXCEPTION a deals with whether or not to issue a timeout for a contact lens dysfunction. However, the original post asked if the guy needing lens service should be replaced with a substitute because personnel came off the bench to provide such service.
Let me stab:
It appears the rules do not address this issue.
If such assistance is rendered for what you consider an "injury", then 3-3-6 requires a sub. If not considered it an "injury", then no sub required.
Either way there doesn't seem to be rules support.
Err on the side of common sense.

thx Freddy,

i think its covered, think about it this way. if player sprains an ankle, trainer/coach comes onto court we know player has to be replaced OR team call timeout to keep him in game. coach/team trainer on floor =replace or timeout. no exception applies there. coach says i want keep him in game so he gets and is charged timeout. player plays on if he is ready by end of the timeout. the timeout allows player to stay in game even though coach and trainer came onto floor. cures the issue of coach/trainer coming onto floor.

now the contact exception- you stop game cause contacts. coach trainer comes out. normal rule says to cure that and keep kid in game team has to call timeout. but since it is contacts/lenses the exception to rule applies. We don't charge the timeout to team. thx

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

... if player sprains an ankle, trainer/coach comes onto court we know player has to be replaced OR team call timeout to keep him in game.

Even if the coach is beckoned, and, for whatever reason, he doesn't come out onto the court attend to the injured player, he still has to take the player out, or request, and be granted, a timeout.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even if the coach is beckoned, and, for whatever reason, he doesn't come out onto the court attend to the injured player, he still has to take the player out, or request, and be granted, a timeout.

double check that Billy. substitution rule says beckoned AND comes onto the court. if kid goes down hard, you immediately beckon the coach but coach hesitates for a few seconds...kid pops up ready to play he can stay in. fact that you beckoned him doesnt mean he has to come out. at least by the wording of the rule.

i agree if what you mean is player just doesnt shake it off and isnt ready to play fairly soon. we can say to the coach we need a replacement because he just isnt ready in time. thx

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

double check that Billy. substitution rule says beckoned AND comes onto the court. if kid goes down hard, you immediately beckon the coach but coach hesitates for a few seconds...kid pops up ready to play he can stay in. fact that you beckoned him doesnt mean he has to come out. at least by the wording of the rule.

i agree if what you mean is player just doesnt shake it off and isnt ready to play fairly soon. we can say to the coach we need a replacement because he just isnt ready in time. thx

The case book says otherwise:

3.3.6 SITUATION B: A1 appears to be injured and an official properly halts play and the Team A coach rushes onto the court to check A1. However, A1 is OK and seems ready to play within a few seconds. RULING: A1 must be removed as the coach came onto the court. A1 may remain in the game if the coach does not come on the court and A1 is ready to play immediately. If the coach or other bench personnel have come onto the court, the player must be replaced. There is no set amount of time as to what is “immediately,” but it should not involve more than a few seconds and it must be without the coach, athletic trainer or doctor being beckoned and/or entering the court. The coach may also call a time-out to keep the player in the game provided the replacement interval for the substitution has not begun. (10-4-2)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The case book says otherwise:

i have random rule books lying around. in the 1999 book the Rule is 3-3-5 and it says "beckoned and/or" as opposed to just AND as it says now. In the 2007/08 rule book it also has and/or. im not sure when the rule was changed but the /or was removed. the 2013/14 rule also says AND. They likely changed the rule wording and forgot to change case play wording....or changed rule wording by mistake.....

if the player is ready in the example i gave and the coach doesn't want to come out i'm not going to make the player leave or burn a TO because i waived my arm early....thx

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i have random rule books lying around. in the 1999 book the Rule is 3-3-5 and it says "beckoned and/or" as opposed to just AND as it says now. In the 2007/08 rule book it also has and/or. im not sure when the rule was changed but the /or was removed. the 2013/14 rule also says AND. They likely changed the rule wording and forgot to change case play wording....or changed rule wording by mistake.....

if the player is ready in the example i gave and the coach doesn't want to come out i'm not going to make the player leave or burn a TO because i waived my arm early....thx

I'm slow to beckon. I have even put a hand up and tried to hold the coach back a second (not long) if I think the player can recover so the coach isn't forced to choose between a sub and a TO.

If I've beckoned the coach, I'm following the rule whether he comes out or not.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

If I've beckoned the coach, I'm following the rule whether he (coach) comes out or not.

(Note: My parenthesis added above.)

Just beckoned? Which rule? The rule as noted in the rulebook? Or the rule as noted in the casebook?

(Sorry Adam. I'm not mad at you, and I shouldn't take it out on you, but I'm still pissed at the stupid NFHS. Really pissed.)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm slow to beckon. I have even put a hand up and tried to hold the coach back a second (not long) if I think the player can recover so the coach isn't forced to choose between a sub and a TO.

If I've beckoned the coach, I'm following the rule whether he comes out or not.

i think we are trying to figure out the exact rule. it used to be in the rule book and/or. if you did either player replaced or TO. case book was same. now rule book says beckoned AND enters. case book not changed. Is it a mistake in the rule book or did they announce a change as Billy suggested and just forget to change the case book? we know that happens from time to time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

double check that Billy. substitution rule says beckoned AND comes onto the court.

3-3-6: A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any
other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be directed
to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team
and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3-3-6: A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any
other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be directed
to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team
and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out.

my 2014/15 ipad rules and paper rules dont have the "and/or." they simply say AND. the casebook play Camron cited, which has the coach trainer running onto the floor, certainly does...

i've said it before so i have to say it now...preface in case book says...case book plays are "supplement to the rules, approved by the rules committee, official." the law until overturned...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

my 2014/15 ipad rules and paper rules don't have the "and/or." they simply say AND. the casebook play Camron cited, which has the coach trainer running onto the floor, certainly does... i've said it before so i have to say it now...preface in case book says...case book plays are "supplement to the rules, approved by the rules committee, official." the law until overturned...

(Question: Why doesn't the shift key on your keyboard work?)

Good catch BigCat. The change in the rulebook was made in 2013-14.

3-3-6: A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any other bench
personnel is beckoned and comes onto the court shall be directed to leave the game, unless a
time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team and the situation can be corrected by the end
of the time-out.

3.3.6 SITUATION B: A1 appears to be injured and an official properly halts play and the Team A coach rushes onto the court to check A1. However, A1 is OK and seems ready to play within a few seconds. RULING: A1 must be removed as the coach came onto the court. A1 may remain in the game if the coach does not come on the court and A1 is ready to play immediately. If the coach or other bench personnel have come onto the court, the player must be replaced. There is no set amount of time as to what is “immediately,” but it should not involve more than a few seconds and it must be without the coach, athletic trainer or doctor being beckoned and/or entering the court. The coach may also call a time-out to keep the player in the game provided the replacement interval for the substitution has not begun. (10-4-2)

Yet another example of an announced rule change by the NFHS. This is the first that I've heard of this change. Why does the NFHS keep doing this? They should, at least, announce this as an editorial change. Instead, they like to play, "How Is The Photo On The Left Different Than The Photo On The Right?". When will the NFHS realize that basketball isn't a game. Wait? I'm being told ... What? Are you sure? Never mind.

To make matters worse, we have the unintended consequence of the change not showing up in the casebook.

Why does the NFHS accept such incompetence from its basketball committee? Does this happen in other sports?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Question: Why doesn't the shift key on your keyboard work?)

Good catch BigCat. The change in the rulebook was made in 2013-14.

3-3-6: A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any other bench
personnel is beckoned and comes onto the court shall be directed to leave the game, unless a
time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team and the situation can be corrected by the end
of the time-out.

3.3.6 SITUATION B: A1 appears to be injured and an official properly halts play and the Team A coach rushes onto the court to check A1. However, A1 is OK and seems ready to play within a few seconds. RULING: A1 must be removed as the coach came onto the court. A1 may remain in the game if the coach does not come on the court and A1 is ready to play immediately. If the coach or other bench personnel have come onto the court, the player must be replaced. There is no set amount of time as to what is “immediately,” but it should not involve more than a few seconds and it must be without the coach, athletic trainer or doctor being beckoned and/or entering the court. The coach may also call a time-out to keep the player in the game provided the replacement interval for the substitution has not begun. (10-4-2)

Yet another example of an announced rule change by the NFHS. This is the first that I've heard of this change. Why does the NFHS keep doing this? They should, at least, announce this as an editorial change. Instead, they like to play, "How Is The Photo On The Left Different Than The Photo On The Right?". When will the NFHS realize that basketball isn't a game. Wait? I'm being told ... What? Are you sure? Never mind.

To make matters worse, we have the unintended consequence of the change not showing up in the casebook.

Why does the NFHS accept such incompetence from its basketball committee? Does this happen in other sports?

i'm sorry about the shift key. (I just did it again) Lazy.....trying to type too fast....I will work at it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

... coach/team trainer on floor = replace or timeout. no exception applies there.

There may be an exception when having to play with less than five players? I'm not 100% sure, and I'm too tired to look it up. Overtime game tonight.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

There may be an exception when having to play with less than five players? I'm not 100% sure, and I'm too tired to look it up. Overtime game tonight.

i think you may be right. i wasnt thinking about a 4 player issue etc. since you were, you get to look it up. let me know when you get a chance. thx

[BillyMac]

(I know that it's a Beatles song, but this cover is classic)

Originally Posted by BillyMac

There may be an exception when having to play with less than five players? I'm not 100% sure, and I'm too tired to look it up. Overtime game tonight.

I know that the "five player rule" trumps the "sit a tick rule", but I'm still not sure if it trumps the "sit, or take a time out rule"? Does it matter if there are no timeouts available? How about a little help here guys?