Chaminade (MO) vs. Paul VI (VA) (HS Basketball) (Video)

[Welpe]

1) Travel....

Yes, I have him in the act of shooting.

2) Not a GT in NFHS.

[RefCT]

As I said in the other thread - these crews are assigned by an ECAC college assignor and are following NCAAM rules.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

1) shooting foul in HS, common foul in NCAA-M, prior to upward motion

Play 2, I do not have a GT.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

1) shooting foul in HS, common foul in NCAA-M, prior to upward motion

Why do you have a different ruling between HS and and NCAA?

Are the NFHS and NCAA rules on act of shooting not the same?

NCAA:

Art. 1. Continuous motion applies to a try for field goal or free throw, but shall have no significance unless there is a foul by the defense during the interval that begins when the normal throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

Art. 10. The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball on a try.

NFHS:

ART. 1. Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

ART. 3 . . . The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

Aside from minor grammatical and word form differences, these read identical.

[APG]

A.R. 111. A1 is dribbling the ball and attempts to turn the corner at the top of the key to drive down the lane. B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble. A1 then steps with his right foot and then pushes off with his left foot before beginning to raise his arm(s) or hand(s) to release the ball for a layup. The try is successful.

RULING: The foul occurred before the act of shooting began. Therefore, the goal should not count. Charge B1 with a personal foul and shoot appropriate free throws if Team A is in the bonus. The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball,” refers to the hand(s) or arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion include raising the ball with the hand(s) and or arm(s) to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet. (Rule 5-1.10 and 4-8.1)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by APG

A.R. 111. A1 is dribbling the ball and attempts to turn the corner at the top of the key to drive down the lane. B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble. A1 then steps with his right foot and then pushes off with his left foot before beginning to raise his arm(s) or hand(s) to release the ball for a layup. The try is successful.

RULING: The foul occurred before the act of shooting began. Therefore, the goal should not count. Charge B1 with a personal foul and shoot appropriate free throws if Team A is in the bonus. The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball,” refers to the hand(s) or arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion include raising the ball with the hand(s) and or arm(s) to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet. (Rule 5-1.10 and 4-8.1)

Agree. But HS is no different than NCAA in this area. NBA is different, but that isn't what is being discussed.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree. But HS is no different than NCAA in this area. NBA is different, but that isn't what is being discussed.

Nfhs allows foot movement to be part of continuous motion definition. Put art 2 up if u get chance. NCAA is shorter time. Foot movement is not part of the continuous motion def.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree. But HS is no different than NCAA in this area. NBA is different, but that isn't what is being discussed.

For NCAA-M it is. The above case book play says so. By interpretation, a player is in the act when they start the upward motion.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree. But HS is no different than NCAA in this area. NBA is different, but that isn't what is being discussed.

NCAA-Men's memo dated February 17, 2014:

Play 2- A1 is dribbling the ball and attempts to turn the corner at the top of the key to drive down the lane. B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble. A1 then steps with his right foot and then pushes off with his left foot before beginning to raise his arm(s) or hand(s) to release the ball for a layup. The try is successful.

Ruling- The foul occurred before the act of shooting began. Therefore, the goal should not count. Charge B1 with a personal foul and shoot appropriate free throws if Team A is in the bonus. Rule 5-1.10 and 4-8.1.

Comment-The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball”, refers to the hand(s)/arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion includes raising the ball with the hand(s) and/or arms to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include but is not limited to picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet

The case book appears to have been updated off-cycle this past summer.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

NCAA-Men's memo dated February 17, 2014:

Play 2- A1 is dribbling the ball and attempts to turn the corner at the top of the key to drive down the lane. B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble. A1 then steps with his right foot and then pushes off with his left foot before beginning to raise his arm(s) or hand(s) to release the ball for a layup. The try is successful.

Ruling- The foul occurred before the act of shooting began. Therefore, the goal should not count. Charge B1 with a personal foul and shoot appropriate free throws if Team A is in the bonus. Rule 5-1.10 and 4-8.1.

Comment-The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball”, refers to the hand(s)/arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion includes raising the ball with the hand(s) and/or arms to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include but is not limited to picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet

The case book appears to have been updated off-cycle this past summer.

If my memory serves me correcty (and sometimes it doesn't anymore, ), there was a long thread discussing this A.R. last year. The discussion centered around the sentence: "B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble."

The question was: What does "picks up his dribble" mean? We know (NFHS and NCAA) that a Player that is dribbling the ball cannot be in the Act of Shooting. A1 must end his dribble befofre the Act of Shooting can begin. Many of us thought the wording in the A.R. was poor, but that the A.R.'s Ruling implied that A1 had not ended his dribble before he was fouled therefore he was not in the Act of Shootng. What Camron is saying (and it is not my intent to put words in his mouth) and I concur that the NCAA A.R. is consistent with a Player being fouled before ending his dribble has not been fouled in the Act of Shooting which both NFHS and NCAA Rules tell us.

It should be further stated that there is more than one way for a Player who is dribbling the Ball to end his Dribble: 1) touching the ball simultaneously with both hands; 2) catching the ball with both hands; and 3) touching the ball with one hand and then the other hand before the ball returns to the floor, are just a few ways for a Player to end his Dribble.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Nfhs allows foot movement to be part of continuous motion definition. Put art 2 up if u get chance. NCAA is shorter time. Foot movement is not part of the continuous motion def.

I don't have my NFHS and NCAA Rules Books in front of me but Continuous Motion and Foot Movement Requirements are the same in both rules sets.

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

If my memory serves me correcty (and sometimes it doesn't anymore, ), there was a long thread discussing this A.R. last year. The discussion centered around the sentence: "B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble."

The question was: What does "picks up his dribble" mean? We know (NFHS and NCAA) that a Player that is dribbling the ball cannot be in the Act of Shooting. A1 must end his dribble befofre the Act of Shooting can begin. Many of us thought the wording in the A.R. was poor, but that the A.R.'s Ruling implied that A1 had not ended his dribble before he was fouled therefore he was not in the Act of Shootng. What Camron is saying (and it is not my intent to put words in his mouth) and I concur that the NCAA A.R. is consistent with a Player being fouled before ending his dribble has not been fouled in the Act of Shooting which both NFHS and NCAA Rules tell us.

It should be further stated that there is more than one way for a Player who is dribbling the Ball to end his Dribble: 1) touching the ball simultaneously with both hands; 2) catching the ball with both hands; and 3) touching the ball with one hand and then the other hand before the ball returns to the floor, are just a few ways for a Player to end his Dribble.

MTD, Sr.

We have been explicitly told that "raising the ball with the hand(s) and/or arms to shoot a layup" needs to happen for it to be considered continuous motion.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

We have been explicitly told that "raising the ball with the hand(s) and/or arms to shoot a layup" needs to happen for it to be considered continuous motion.

Whoever is telling you that is just flat out wrong. And you can quote me too him. The NCAA Rules Committees moved the Act of Shooting Definitions from Rule 4 to Rule 5 (I do not know why) some years ago, but they have not changed in the last 50 years (both NFHS and NCAA). The NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's defintions of Continuous Motion are the same.

The phrase in red was the NCAA Men's Rules Committee's ill fated attempt (due to lack of understanding of the defintion of Guarding) last school year to limit Defender's right to Establish a LGP against an Offensive Player who was dribbling toward the his basket and has since been recinded for this school year. It was part of the definition of Guarding, not the Act of Shooting or Continuous Motion definitions.

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Whoever is telling you that is just flat out wrong. And you can quote me too him. The NCAA Rules Committees moved the Act of Shooting Definitions from Rule 4 to Rule 5 (I do not know why) some years ago, but they have not changed in the last 50 years (both NFHS and NCAA). The NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's defintions of Continuous Motion are the same.

The phrase in red was the NCAA Men's Rules Committee's ill fated attempt (due to lack of understanding of the defintion of Guarding) last school year to limit Defender's right to Establish a LGP against an Offensive Player who was dribbling toward the his basket and has since been recinded for this school year. It was part of the definition of Guarding, not the Act of Shooting or Continuous Motion definitions.

MTD, Sr.

First name "John", last name "Adams". Lives in Indianapolis I believe. Has a buddy named Art Hyland.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

First name "John", last name "Adams". Lives in Indianapolis I believe. Has a buddy named Art Hyland.

I know who they are I don't care if they stand on their heads and spit wooden nickels. They cannot, by Rule, Casebook Plays, and Approved Rulings for at least the past 50 years, defend their postion. They are starting to take stupid pills from the Women's Rules Committee and parroting the opinions of coaches (and fans) who have no knowledge and understanding of the rules.

MTD, Sr.