throw-in/goaltending

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

After reading your other posts in other threads I get the feeling that you are a young official who does not have a good grasp of Rule 4 nor do you have grasp how different rules interact with each other.

I don't understand why you have a problem with the definitions of Throw-in, Field Goal Attempt, Baske Interference, and Goaltending and how these rules interact?

MTD, Sr.

I don't think that I do have a problem with those definitions, though I admit I've never considered BI as a possibility on a throw in. I misspoke for the sake of avoiding a drawn out explanation earlier when I said "I did not realize that BI does not specify a try..." because I do know its possible on, say, a skip-pass scenario. Again, I hadn't considered it on a throw in, and even though it's clearly a case play which I quoted earlier, I must've just not processed that one while reading the book.

My complaint is not that I won't call or apply the rules as written, but my question is why that definition is worded the way it is. It seems to go against my intuition that points can be scored in this manner, and to go back to my initial question, is there a purpose for this ruling?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Basket Interference (BI) and Goaltending (GT) are violations that involve the Ball. I will discuss BI first, then GT (not involving FTs), and then GT involving FTs.


BI applies to a Live Ball that is:

a) IN,

b) ON the Basket, or

c) IN or TOUCHING the Imaginary Cylinder above the Basket Ring.

The BI Rule does not care how or what caused the Ball to be in (a), (b), or (c). The BI Rule only cares about the Ball being touched while it is in (a), (b), or (c).


GT also applies to a Live Ball, but to a Live Ball during a FGA (including a Tap) that is:

a) on its way downward flight,

b) entirely above the Basket Ring,

c) has a chance the possibility of the Basket in flight.


A special note to Frezer11, as you can see there really is a difference between BI and GT and why they are different.


(With apologies to Monty Python.) And now for something completely different. GT of a FT is an completely different situation. And the Rule goes back to the early 1980's when the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees changed the FT to allow players in Spaces along the FT Lane to enter the FT Lane after the Ball was released by the FT Shooter during his/her FT Attempt.

The Rules Committees soon realized that a very quick Defender could enter the FT Lane after the Shooter and released the Ball and block the FT Attempt before it had started its downward flight.

The Rules Committees revised the definition of GT to include a Defender (not a teammate of the FT Shooter) touching the Ball after the FT Shooter had released the Ball and before the Ball entered the Imaginary Cyinder above the Basket Ring, as well made it a TF charged to the Defender that committed the GT.

The NFHS Rules Committee never changed the definition of GT when it reverted back to the old rule that prevented the players in the Spaces along the FT Lane from entering the FT Lane until the Ball had touched the Backboard or Basket. And now that Players in the Spaces along the FT Lane can enter the FT Lane after the Ball is released by the FT Shooter, the GT of a FT Rule has some relevance.

MTD, Sr.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Basket Interference (BI) and Goaltending (GT) are violations that involve the Ball. I will discuss BI first, then GT (not involving FTs), and then GT involving FTs.


BI applies to a Live Ball that is:

a) IN,

b) ON the Basket, or

c) IN or TOUCHING the Imaginary Cylinder above the Basket Ring.

The BI Rule does not care how or what caused the Ball to be in (a), (b), or (c). The BI Rule only cares about the Ball being touched while it is in (a), (b), or (c).


GT also applies to a Live Ball, but to a Live Ball during a FGA (including a Tap) that is:

a) on its way downward flight,

b) entirely above the Basket Ring,

c) has a chance the possibility of the Basket in flight.


A special note to Frezer11, as you can see there really is a difference between BI and GT and why they are different.


(With apologies to Monty Python.) And now for something completely different. GT of a FT is an completely different situation. And the Rule goes back to the early 1980's when the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees changed the FT to allow players in Spaces along the FT Lane to enter the FT Lane after the Ball was released by the FT Shooter during his/her FT Attempt.

The Rules Committees soon realized that a very quick Defender could enter the FT Lane after the Shooter and released the Ball and block the FT Attempt before it had started its downward flight.

The Rules Committees revised the definition of GT to include a Defender (not a teammate of the FT Shooter) touching the Ball after the FT Shooter had released the Ball and before the Ball entered the Imaginary Cyinder above the Basket Ring, as well made it a TF charged to the Defender that committed the GT.

The NFHS Rules Committee never changed the definition of GT when it reverted back to the old rule that prevented the players in the Spaces along the FT Lane from entering the FT Lane until the Ball had touched the Backboard or Basket. And now that Players in the Spaces along the FT Lane can enter the FT Lane after the Ball is released by the FT Shooter, the GT of a FT Rule has some relevance.

MTD, Sr.

I thank you for posting this, and I don't want to sound unappreciative or arrogant, but I really think I do have a pretty solid understanding of those differences. My question is not the interpretation of the rule, but rather why the rule exists the way that it does. I get why basket interference exists on a pass, but why is BI possible when a field goal is not? Is there a reason the rule includes a throw in rather than excluding that scenario?

Originally Posted by mutantducky

Inbounds throw-in. The ball is passed toward the rim. It clearly is going to hit the rim or B, offensive player catches the pass above the cylinder and dunks it in. (I'd love to see that!

Would goaltending apply to this situation?

No. Goaltending only applies to a field-goal try or tap. A throw-in pass is neither.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

No. Goaltending only applies to a field-goal try or tap.

Free throw?

4-22: Goaltending occurs when a player touches the ball during a field-goal try or tap
while it is in its downward flight entirely above the basket ring level and has the
possibility of entering the basket in flight, or an opponent of the free thrower
touches the ball outside the cylinder during a free-throw attempt.

9-12: A player shall not commit goaltending, as in 4-22 ... See 10-3-9 for additional penalty for goaltending
during a free throw.

10-3-9: A player shall not: Goaltend during a free throw (technical foul).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Free throw?

4-22: Goaltending occurs when a player touches the ball during a field-goal try or tap while it is in its downward flight entirely above the basket ring level and has the possibility of entering the basket in flight, or an opponent of the free thrower touches the ball outside the cylinder during a free-throw attempt.

That's exactly what I wrote. As the free-throw definition does not specify it being different from a field-goal try, I consider it a field-goal try even if stats people do not. Thus, GT applies during FT's.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

That's exactly what I wrote. As the free-throw definition does not specify it being different from a field-goal try, I consider it a field-goal try even if stats people do not. Thus, GT applies during FT's.

Sorry, the word "only" and "field-goal try" through me.

Originally Posted by AremRed

Goaltending only applies to a field-goal try or tap.

Originally Posted by AremRed

... the free-throw definition does not specify it being different from a field-goal try.

But it is different. On a free throw, the ball can be anywhere outside of the cylinder, it can be on it's upward flight, it doesn't have to be entirely above the basket ring, and it doesn't have to have a chance to go in.

[frezer11]

Read the definition of goaltending. If it's not a try, there is no violation

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

Inbounds throw-in. The ball is passed toward the rim. It clearly is going to hit the rim or B, offensive player catches the pass above the cylinder and dunks it in. (I'd love to see that!

Would goaltending apply to this situation?

This is NOT ever a Goaltending; there can NOT ever be Goaltending on a Throw-in.

This is Basket Interference.

Only the Basketball Interference Rule applies during a Throw-in. The Goaltending Rule does NOT apply during a Throw-in.

MTD, Sr.