Book Situation

Originally Posted by Rich

But I've come to appreciate another side of this now that I'm also an administrator. We have a quarter limit here -- 4 quarters per day unless a school has a 5th (or 6th) quarter waiver. No eligibility - coach doesn't put the person in the book. That way if he forgets and runs the kid to the table, there should be someone telling him that he made a mistake.

My state has a quarter rule as well and we ran into this problem the other night. 5th foul on a player, coach wanted to sub a player whose quarters were used up. He ended up asking my partner if that was ok and my two partners had to get together to discuss. Not much to discuss, it's not our job to track or enforce the quarter rule. That is up to the AD and state office.

Also had a coach want to add a JV player to the roster around 6 minutes. My R went over and asked the coach if the player was going to play; the coach said probably not. The R then told the coach to wait to add the player if he is going to actually play. We had a close game and the kid never played, so no T. Seemed smart to do it that way.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Also had a coach want to add a JV player to the roster around 6 minutes. My R went over and asked the coach if the player was going to play; the coach said probably not. The R then told the coach to wait to add the player if he is going to actually play. We had a close game and the kid never played, so no T. Seemed smart to do it that way.

Agreed, I've had this happen too. The only way the kid is getting in is if it is not a close game, so why take a T off the bat if you might not need it anyways?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

That way if he forgets and runs the kid to the table, there should be someone telling him that he made a mistake.

Wow. You really trust your table crew. I wouldn't take this chance. If the table crew initially misses it, and later catches it, the other team will be shooting free throws, and the kid still played his extra period.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

There's no reason for teams not to list extra players.

How about a reason from our stupid friends at IAABO (Wait? Did I say that out loud?).

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005: Question 73. Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct? Answer: Yes Rule Citation: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4.

Please note that this is an IAABO exam question, not a NFHS exam question. IAABO exam questions are supposed to be based on NFHS rules, key phrase, "supposed to".

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...8837-book.html

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

No Camron, the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake. This situation is not listed as an allowed exception in the NFHS manual but is in the NCAA-M manual. Therefore, by rule, adding the name in a HS game, even because the score keeper messed up is a technical foul. Again, stupid rule on NFHS part.

The NCAA-M rule

Art. 2. After the 10-minute mark is reached on the game clock that is counting down the time before the start of the game and until the end of the game, a team shall not make changes to the scorebook. The only changes permitted are those necessitated by obvious injury, illness, blood on the uniform, a replacement of a designated starter to shoot a technical-foul free throw, or to correct a scoring or bookkeeping mistake.


The NFHS rule is almost identical, but it does not contain the words bolded and underlined above.

The point you're missing is what I've highlighted in red. If the team submitted the right information, it isn't the team making the change.

If what you suggest were true, and unscrupulous scorer could deliberately alter the number of a starter when entering the roster to guarantee a T on the visiting team. Do you really think that is what the rule intends to allow?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The point you're missing is what I've highlighted in red. If the team submitted the right information, it isn't the team making the change.

If what you suggest were true, and unscrupulous scorer could deliberately alter the number of a starter when entering the roster to guarantee a T on the visiting team. Do you really think that is what the rule intends to allow?

No I don't think that is what the rule intends, and if they added a few extra words like the NCAA-M rule, it would make it crystal clear.

In theory, the unscrupulous scorer could do that, but once teams found out team A was having their scorer do this routinely, they would just have their scorers do it to team A when they played in their gyms. Not sure any team or coach would want the possibility of having this happen to them at every road game just to gain an advantage for their home games.

[BryanV21]

The rule is that a team simply has to present the full roster. Whether or not it gets put into the book correctly is another issue. So in the OP it's not a technical foul, because (as I understand it) the visiting team did indeed present the full roster. The fact that the scorekeeper didn't write the full roster into the book is inconsequential.

When I go to check the book before the 10:00 mark, I simply make sure the full roster was presented to the official scorekeeper. I will go ahead and initial the book below the list of players once they are all in, so I can tell if they try to add a player, but whether the roster is transferred into the book or not doesn't matter (at least in terms of this type of technical foul).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The rule is that a team simply has to present the full roster. Whether or not it gets put into the book correctly is another issue. So in the OP it's not a technical foul, because (as I understand it) the visiting team did indeed present the full roster. The fact that the scorekeeper didn't write the full roster into the book is inconsequential.

When I go to check the book before the 10:00 mark, I simply make sure the full roster was presented to the official scorekeeper. I will go ahead and initial the book below the list of players once they are all in, so I can tell if they try to add a player, but whether the roster is transferred into the book or not doesn't matter (at least in terms of this type of technical foul).

Exactly. The rule only requires the team to provide the information. If the team provides it and the scorer messes it up, it is not their fault and they are not responsible for it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by johnny d

No I don't think that is what the rule intends, and if they added a few extra words like the NCAA-M rule, it would make it crystal clear.

In theory, the unscrupulous scorer could do that, but once teams found out team A was having their scorer do this routinely, they would just have their scorers do it to team A when they played in their gyms. Not sure any team or coach would want the possibility of having this happen to them at every road game just to gain an advantage for their home games.

Forget any unscrupulous behavior. Just consider the situation in which the visiting team properly submitted a copy of its roster to the official scorer and that person made an honest mistake when transferring the information to the official book (perhaps he skipped a team member or got two numbers reversed). Let's further stipulate that the scorer even admits the mistake was his.

Your stance is that this team must now be penalized for something completely beyond its control because that is how that one rule reads. In my opinion that is very poor judgment for a referee.

You are failing to understand that the NFHS rule for scorebook changes presupposes that the team followed the submission requirement and that nothing else irregular took place, such as a screw up by the scorer. The rules function in conjunction with each other, not in isolation.

Lastly, the NFHS rules book contains a statement near the beginning about the importance of understanding the intent and purpose of the rules so that they may be intelligently applied. Penalizing a team for the mistake of someone not even associated with the team would not be in accordance with that.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Forget any unscrupulous behavior. Just consider the situation in which the visiting team properly submitted a copy of its roster to the official scorer and that person made an honest mistake when transferring the information to the official book (perhaps he skipped a team member or got two numbers reversed). Let's further stipulate that the scorer even admits the mistake was his.

Your stance is that this team must now be penalized for something completely beyond its control because that is how that one rule reads. In my opinion that is very poor judgment for a referee.

You are failing to understand that the NFHS rule for scorebook changes presupposes that the team followed the submission requirement and that nothing else irregular took place, such as a screw up by the scorer. The rules function in conjunction with each other, not in isolation.

Lastly, the NFHS rules book contains a statement near the beginning about the importance of understanding the intent and purpose of the rules so that they may be intelligently applied. Penalizing a team for the mistake of someone not even associated with the team would not be in accordance with that.

I never said I would give a technical foul when the submitted roster was correct and a book keeping error occurred. I was arguing that because of the poor wording of the way the rule is written, especially when compared to the wording of the NCAA-M rule, which clearly lists a book keeping mistake as an exception to the technical foul penalty, a case could be made that a technical foul is supported by the rule.

In fact, I had this very situation in a HS game I did last season. The visiting team submitted their correct roster and the score keeper made a mistake transcribing it. When they discovered the error in the book, they notified us. I went to the table, asked for the roster submitted by the visiting team, verified it had the correct info and that it was submitted on time. I told the score keeper to put the player in the book without penalty. Home coach was adamant it was the wrong decision. I told him that if he looks at the rule more carefully, he will see that it states names cannot be added to the team member list, which hasn't occurred, not the score book, which is subject to book keeping errors by his score keeper. He didn't like that explanation and he even called the assignor and complained about it afterwards. The assignor told him he was wrong, the rule isn't meant to punish the other team when the mistake was made by a member from the other school. He didn't like that explanation either. Too bad for him.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

At the moment of the incident, should have been a T for requiring that V40 be added to the scorebook. Or the [disgruntled] coach could have decided not to play V40, thereby not requiring the number to be added and thus avoiding the penalty.

If the scorer made a mistake in transcribing numbers, I feel bad for the coach, but he/she is ultimately responsible for the content of the book, not just the roster he/she turns in. Some officials take the book to the coaches before the game and have them initial or sign their page. I don't do this but I probably should.

On another note, preventative officiating before the game might have helped. If a team member is dressed, even if the coach says he's not playing, I say just have him in the book anyway. More team members in the book is always better than not enough.

Almost everyone else in my area does this, but it's unnecessary so I still don't do it. Just check at the table to make sure they have supplied their roster with starters and you have done your job.

[crosscountry55]

[QUOTE=crosscountry55;949603]If the scorer made a mistake in transcribing numbers, I feel bad for the coach, but he/she is ultimately responsible for the content of the book, not just the roster he/she turns in. Some officials take the book to the coaches before the game and have them initial or sign their page. I don't do this but I probably should.[/QUOTE]

zm1283....thanks for bolding this. I was just about to. I am satisfied by the subsequent thread that I am wrong. The team must supply rosters, etc. The team cannot make a change to the book, etc. So I now agree, if it's clearly the scorer that erred, regardless of when he/she erred, that is not grounds for a TF on a team.

[Rich1]

If the head coach did this "supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time" then there is no cause to penalize him for the need to change the book. Most of the time that is done by having the visiting team's scorekeeper share the book with the home teams score keeper but I do have some coaches who hand the table a printed list.

What is not in the rules is "the coach is ultimately responsible for the content of the book" so to penalize a coach based on that statement, even if it is written in bold on the forum, would be incorrect. This is solely based on a personal philosophy/interpretation bit has not support from the rules or an official interpretation defining it in this way.

The secondary issue we have in the OP is whether or not the coach communicated the wrong number to the scorer. I would be inclined to give the coach the benefit of the doubt unless the coach has a history of such antics.

Of course, the best practice would have been for the coach to just have all of his kids put in the book whether they are playing or not!