Book Situation

[griblets]

BV game tonight. Official scorer is the home team scorer, who tells me that the visiting team's coach told him that V40 isn't playing, therefore, has not been entered into book. The number of players warming up matches the number of players in the book.

In the 2nd period, V40 enters the game. The scorer notified me. When I present the problem to VC, he says, "I said #42 isn't playing." Now we have a problem.

I asked the visiting scorer if their book was presented to the official scorer at least 10 minutes before the game. Both scorer's agreed that it was. Therefore, I instructed the official scorer to add #40 to the official book with no penalty.

Rule 3-1 states, "At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member...". I maintain that the team complied with their responsibility, therefore, there can be no penalty. One of my partners agreed, but another observing official disagreed, stating that because the official book was amended, a technical foul was warranted.

What say you?

[frezer11]

Did they erase the name? I don't understand how the coach saying anything is relevant unless they did. And if they did, why? Seems like that was not necessary.

But anyways, if the visiting team supplied their roster, and there was a problem copying it down, then I agree with you, no penalty.

[crosscountry55]

At the moment of the incident, should have been a T for requiring that V40 be added to the scorebook. Or the [disgruntled] coach could have decided not to play V40, thereby not requiring the number to be added and thus avoiding the penalty.

If the scorer made a mistake in transcribing numbers, I feel bad for the coach, but he/she is ultimately responsible for the content of the book, not just the roster he/she turns in. Some officials take the book to the coaches before the game and have them initial or sign their page. I don't do this but I probably should.

On another note, preventative officiating before the game might have helped. If a team member is dressed, even if the coach says he's not playing, I say just have him in the book anyway. More team members in the book is always better than not enough.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

At the moment of the incident, should have been a T for requiring that V40 be added to the scorebook.

This is why the NFHS rule is stupid. Argument aside as to which number the coach said wasn't playing. The home/official score keeper was given a roster with all the visiting players listed, including the player in question. Because the home score keeper did not list this player in the official book, the visiting team is now assessed a technical foul. The NCAA-M rule specifically addresses this situation, and allows changes to be made without penalty for a bookkeeping mistake, which this clearly is.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is why the NFHS rule is stupid. Argument aside as to which number the coach said wasn't playing. The home/official score keeper was given a roster with all the visiting players listed, including the player in question. Because the home score keeper did not list this player in the official book, the visiting team is now assessed a technical foul. The NCAA-M rule specifically addresses this situation, and allows changes to be made without penalty for a bookkeeping mistake, which this clearly is.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that there should be a T called? Let me change the scenario slightly. Table buzzes you over mid-1st quarter saying a player isn't in the book. The visiting coach shows you the media guide they use for the book in all their games, and the player in question is listed. Do you still give a T when there is no question that it is the home team scorer's mistake?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is why the NFHS rule is stupid. Argument aside as to which number the coach said wasn't playing. The home/official score keeper was given a roster with all the visiting players listed, including the player in question. Because the home score keeper did not list this player in the official book, the visiting team is now assessed a technical foul. The NCAA-M rule specifically addresses this situation, and allows changes to be made without penalty for a bookkeeping mistake, which this clearly is.

The NFHS rule is fine. It only requires that the information be presented by the 10 minute mark. If it was presented to the scorer but the scorer made an error in entering the information, then there is no penalty. Just like the NCAA rule.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

I have had a lot more officials this year signing off on the book after I declare it ready to go to prevent such an issue even in my lower level games.Over the sound of warm up music I can see how this mistake might have occurred.In my varsity games the book is prepared ahead of time-during halftime of JV boys I will say hello to the visiting coaches and hand them a roster and ask them to mark their starters and verify #'s are correct and mark DNP's.This way if I have any issues at all I have paperwork that shows what the coach has filled out or said was correct.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The NFHS rule is fine. It only requires that the information be presented by the 10 minute mark. If it was presented to the scorer but the scorer made an error in entering the information, then there is no penalty. Just like the NCAA rule.

No Camron, the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake. This situation is not listed as an allowed exception in the NFHS manual but is in the NCAA-M manual. Therefore, by rule, adding the name in a HS game, even because the score keeper messed up is a technical foul. Again, stupid rule on NFHS part.

The NCAA-M rule

Art. 2. After the 10-minute mark is reached on the game clock that is counting
down the time before the start of the game and until the end of the game, a team
shall not make changes to the scorebook. The only changes permitted are those
necessitated by obvious injury, illness, blood on the uniform, a replacement of a
designated starter to shoot a technical-foul free throw, or to correct a scoring or
bookkeeping mistake.


The NFHS rule is almost identical, but it does not contain the words bolded and underlined above.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnny d

No Camron, the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake.

I agree with Camron on this -- the rule requires the coach to SUPPLY the scorer with the roster. The coach met the requirement. No T.

The rule does not require the coach to verify the information in the book.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by johnny d

... the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake. ...This situation is not listed as an allowed exception in the NFHS manual ... Therefore, by rule, adding the name in a HS game, even because the score keeper messed up is a technical foul.

No. Once the team supplies the scorer with the name, and number, of the participants, the team has fulfilled that part of the rule. If the scorer makes a mistake, it's not technical foul to add a name, assuming the submitted roster was correct to begin with.

NFHS 10-1: A team shall not:
ART. 1 Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.
ART. 2 After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:
b. Add a name to the team member list.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

No Camron, the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake. This situation is not listed as an allowed exception in the NFHS manual but is in the NCAA-M manual. Therefore, by rule, adding the name in a HS game, even because the score keeper messed up is a technical foul. Again, stupid rule on NFHS part.

The NCAA-M rule

Art. 2. After the 10-minute mark is reached on the game clock that is counting down the time before the start of the game and until the end of the game, a team shall not make changes to the scorebook. The only changes permitted are those necessitated by obvious injury, illness, blood on the uniform, a replacement of a designated starter to shoot a technical-foul free throw, or to correct a scoring or bookkeeping mistake.


The NFHS rule is almost identical, but it does not contain the words bolded and underlined above.

The point you're missing is what I've highlighted in red. If the team submitted the right information, it isn't the team making the change.

If what you suggest were true, and unscrupulous scorer could deliberately alter the number of a starter when entering the roster to guarantee a T on the visiting team. Do you really think that is what the rule intends to allow?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

At the moment of the incident, should have been a T for requiring that V40 be added to the scorebook. Or the [disgruntled] coach could have decided not to play V40, thereby not requiring the number to be added and thus avoiding the penalty.

If the scorer made a mistake in transcribing numbers, I feel bad for the coach, but he/she is ultimately responsible for the content of the book, not just the roster he/she turns in. Some officials take the book to the coaches before the game and have them initial or sign their page. I don't do this but I probably should.

On another note, preventative officiating before the game might have helped. If a team member is dressed, even if the coach says he's not playing, I say just have him in the book anyway. More team members in the book is always better than not enough.

Unfortunately, you are not correct about the rules requirements for the teams.

[crosscountry55]

[QUOTE=crosscountry55;949603]If the scorer made a mistake in transcribing numbers, I feel bad for the coach, but he/she is ultimately responsible for the content of the book, not just the roster he/she turns in. Some officials take the book to the coaches before the game and have them initial or sign their page. I don't do this but I probably should.[/QUOTE]

zm1283....thanks for bolding this. I was just about to. I am satisfied by the subsequent thread that I am wrong. The team must supply rosters, etc. The team cannot make a change to the book, etc. So I now agree, if it's clearly the scorer that erred, regardless of when he/she erred, that is not grounds for a TF on a team.

[Rich1]

If the head coach did this "supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time" then there is no cause to penalize him for the need to change the book. Most of the time that is done by having the visiting team's scorekeeper share the book with the home teams score keeper but I do have some coaches who hand the table a printed list.

What is not in the rules is "the coach is ultimately responsible for the content of the book" so to penalize a coach based on that statement, even if it is written in bold on the forum, would be incorrect. This is solely based on a personal philosophy/interpretation bit has not support from the rules or an official interpretation defining it in this way.

The secondary issue we have in the OP is whether or not the coach communicated the wrong number to the scorer. I would be inclined to give the coach the benefit of the doubt unless the coach has a history of such antics.

Of course, the best practice would have been for the coach to just have all of his kids put in the book whether they are playing or not!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by griblets

BV game tonight. Official scorer is the home team scorer, who tells me that the visiting team's coach told him that V40 isn't playing, therefore, has not been entered into book. The number of players warming up matches the number of players in the book.

In the 2nd period, V40 enters the game. The scorer notified me. When I present the problem to VC, he says, "I said #42 isn't playing." Now we have a problem.

So was 40 on the list that was submitted or not?