Book Situation

[griblets]

BV game tonight. Official scorer is the home team scorer, who tells me that the visiting team's coach told him that V40 isn't playing, therefore, has not been entered into book. The number of players warming up matches the number of players in the book.

In the 2nd period, V40 enters the game. The scorer notified me. When I present the problem to VC, he says, "I said #42 isn't playing." Now we have a problem.

I asked the visiting scorer if their book was presented to the official scorer at least 10 minutes before the game. Both scorer's agreed that it was. Therefore, I instructed the official scorer to add #40 to the official book with no penalty.

Rule 3-1 states, "At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member...". I maintain that the team complied with their responsibility, therefore, there can be no penalty. One of my partners agreed, but another observing official disagreed, stating that because the official book was amended, a technical foul was warranted.

What say you?

[frezer11]

Did they erase the name? I don't understand how the coach saying anything is relevant unless they did. And if they did, why? Seems like that was not necessary.

But anyways, if the visiting team supplied their roster, and there was a problem copying it down, then I agree with you, no penalty.

[crosscountry55]

At the moment of the incident, should have been a T for requiring that V40 be added to the scorebook. Or the [disgruntled] coach could have decided not to play V40, thereby not requiring the number to be added and thus avoiding the penalty.

If the scorer made a mistake in transcribing numbers, I feel bad for the coach, but he/she is ultimately responsible for the content of the book, not just the roster he/she turns in. Some officials take the book to the coaches before the game and have them initial or sign their page. I don't do this but I probably should.

On another note, preventative officiating before the game might have helped. If a team member is dressed, even if the coach says he's not playing, I say just have him in the book anyway. More team members in the book is always better than not enough.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

At the moment of the incident, should have been a T for requiring that V40 be added to the scorebook.

This is why the NFHS rule is stupid. Argument aside as to which number the coach said wasn't playing. The home/official score keeper was given a roster with all the visiting players listed, including the player in question. Because the home score keeper did not list this player in the official book, the visiting team is now assessed a technical foul. The NCAA-M rule specifically addresses this situation, and allows changes to be made without penalty for a bookkeeping mistake, which this clearly is.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is why the NFHS rule is stupid. Argument aside as to which number the coach said wasn't playing. The home/official score keeper was given a roster with all the visiting players listed, including the player in question. Because the home score keeper did not list this player in the official book, the visiting team is now assessed a technical foul. The NCAA-M rule specifically addresses this situation, and allows changes to be made without penalty for a bookkeeping mistake, which this clearly is.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that there should be a T called? Let me change the scenario slightly. Table buzzes you over mid-1st quarter saying a player isn't in the book. The visiting coach shows you the media guide they use for the book in all their games, and the player in question is listed. Do you still give a T when there is no question that it is the home team scorer's mistake?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by griblets

BV game tonight. Official scorer is the home team scorer, who tells me that the visiting team's coach told him that V40 isn't playing, therefore, has not been entered into book. The number of players warming up matches the number of players in the book.

In the 2nd period, V40 enters the game. The scorer notified me. When I present the problem to VC, he says, "I said #42 isn't playing." Now we have a problem.

So was 40 on the list that was submitted or not?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is why the NFHS rule is stupid. Argument aside as to which number the coach said wasn't playing. The home/official score keeper was given a roster with all the visiting players listed, including the player in question. Because the home score keeper did not list this player in the official book, the visiting team is now assessed a technical foul. The NCAA-M rule specifically addresses this situation, and allows changes to be made without penalty for a bookkeeping mistake, which this clearly is.

The NFHS rule is fine. It only requires that the information be presented by the 10 minute mark. If it was presented to the scorer but the scorer made an error in entering the information, then there is no penalty. Just like the NCAA rule.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

I have had a lot more officials this year signing off on the book after I declare it ready to go to prevent such an issue even in my lower level games.Over the sound of warm up music I can see how this mistake might have occurred.In my varsity games the book is prepared ahead of time-during halftime of JV boys I will say hello to the visiting coaches and hand them a roster and ask them to mark their starters and verify #'s are correct and mark DNP's.This way if I have any issues at all I have paperwork that shows what the coach has filled out or said was correct.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

At the moment of the incident, should have been a T for requiring that V40 be added to the scorebook. Or the [disgruntled] coach could have decided not to play V40, thereby not requiring the number to be added and thus avoiding the penalty.

If the scorer made a mistake in transcribing numbers, I feel bad for the coach, but he/she is ultimately responsible for the content of the book, not just the roster he/she turns in. Some officials take the book to the coaches before the game and have them initial or sign their page. I don't do this but I probably should.

On another note, preventative officiating before the game might have helped. If a team member is dressed, even if the coach says he's not playing, I say just have him in the book anyway. More team members in the book is always better than not enough.

Unfortunately, you are not correct about the rules requirements for the teams.

[griblets]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So was 40 on the list that was submitted or not?

Yes, V40 was listed on the roster provided to the official scorer.

[HokiePaul]

Sounds like there are two possibilities:
1) V coach provided the official scorer with the roster and incorrectly informed him that #40 would not be playing when he really meant to say #42 would not be playing.

2) V coach provided the official scorer with the roster and correctly informed him that #42 would not be playing, however, the scorer incorrectly heard #40 instead.

Unless I have reason to believe otherwise, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the Visitor coach here and assume that it was a scorekeeper mistake -- no penalty.

Another reason, the V coach may have just been giving the scorer additional information for statistical purposes, not telling him to leave the player off of the roster. It's pretty common from what I see to just copy the full roster week to week, regardless of who is planning to play or not.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The NFHS rule is fine. It only requires that the information be presented by the 10 minute mark. If it was presented to the scorer but the scorer made an error in entering the information, then there is no penalty. Just like the NCAA rule.

No Camron, the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake. This situation is not listed as an allowed exception in the NFHS manual but is in the NCAA-M manual. Therefore, by rule, adding the name in a HS game, even because the score keeper messed up is a technical foul. Again, stupid rule on NFHS part.

The NCAA-M rule

Art. 2. After the 10-minute mark is reached on the game clock that is counting
down the time before the start of the game and until the end of the game, a team
shall not make changes to the scorebook. The only changes permitted are those
necessitated by obvious injury, illness, blood on the uniform, a replacement of a
designated starter to shoot a technical-foul free throw, or to correct a scoring or
bookkeeping mistake.


The NFHS rule is almost identical, but it does not contain the words bolded and underlined above.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnny d

No Camron, the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake.

I agree with Camron on this -- the rule requires the coach to SUPPLY the scorer with the roster. The coach met the requirement. No T.

The rule does not require the coach to verify the information in the book.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by johnny d

... the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake. ...This situation is not listed as an allowed exception in the NFHS manual ... Therefore, by rule, adding the name in a HS game, even because the score keeper messed up is a technical foul.

No. Once the team supplies the scorer with the name, and number, of the participants, the team has fulfilled that part of the rule. If the scorer makes a mistake, it's not technical foul to add a name, assuming the submitted roster was correct to begin with.

NFHS 10-1: A team shall not:
ART. 1 Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.
ART. 2 After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:
b. Add a name to the team member list.

[Rich]

There's no reason for teams not to list extra players. At least that's what I thought.

But I've come to appreciate another side of this now that I'm also an administrator. We have a quarter limit here -- 4 quarters per day unless a school has a 5th (or 6th) quarter waiver. No eligibility - coach doesn't put the person in the book. That way if he forgets and runs the kid to the table, there should be someone telling him that he made a mistake.

I still verify when there are fewer number than kids warming up and this is invariably the answer I get.