Wrong Way to Start the 4th

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

Officials and coaches who know me know that I will not think twice about whacking a coach.

BUT if I screwed the poach (as umpires would say) and I it is a situation taht I cannot reverse then I am going to let the coach chew on my tuchus a little.

I can assure you that in a college game if you screw up a coach's play and then you whack him because you didn't like him complaining about it, you won't be officiating at the level for very long.

MTD, Sr.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BUT if I screwed the poach (as umpires would say) and I it is a situation taht I cannot reverse then I am going to let the coach chew on my tuchus a little.

As would I. However, I would allow him some extra chewing before I addressed the situation with him. I might give him some extra time to vent his frustration to me when I go to him and before I give him an explanation, or if he is addressing me when I am table side in front of his bench, I might give him a trip or two up and down the court. If he is yelling at me across the court or being an obvious jackass, then he wont be getting any extra rope, even if I was completely wrong on the call in question. Once he has my explanation, or I have told him we are done discussing the play, he has two choices, move on or get whacked.

Thanks for the advice, but there is no need for you to worry though, my college schedule has been fine and will continue to grow.

[Rich1]

Agree that game management dictates that you clear this up before starting the throw in but if you didn't then there's not much you can do until the ball becomes dead. This could be when a basket is made in the wrong goal (award Team A two points, give Team A the ball for a throw in, and get them going in the right way), after a 10 second count (keep in mind you would keep counting even if Team A throws the ball at the basket as this is not considered a try), or several other possible stoppages of play.Under most circumstances in sanctioned school ball I would not "coach" the team that they are headed the wrong way once the ball became live but in the rigt situation I could be tempted. For the most part I think you say it loud and say it often before putting the ball in play and hope either the players or the coaches get it quick.

I don't follow the arguement that this is an officials error (in this OP) because they made it very ckear which direction they were supposed to be heading. If Team A inbounds the ball and starts the wrong way its a player/coach error regardless of where the defense lines up. As stated by others, the NFHS procedure being cited is for times when the officials actually screw up the throwin on their own accord.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Agree that game management dictates that you clear this up before starting the throw in but if you didn't then there's not much you can do until the ball becomes dead. This could be when a basket is made in the wrong goal (award Team A two points, give Team A the ball for a throw in, and get them going in the right way), after a 10 second count (keep in mind you would keep counting even if Team A throws the ball at the basket as this is not considered a try), or several other possible stoppages of play.Under most circumstances in sanctioned school ball I would not "coach" the team that they are headed the wrong way once the ball became live but in the rigt situation I could be tempted. For the most part I think you say it loud and say it often before putting the ball in play and hope either the players or the coaches get it quick.

I don't follow the arguement that this is an officials error (in this OP) because they made it very ckear which direction they were supposed to be heading. If Team A inbounds the ball and starts the wrong way its a player/coach error regardless of where the defense lines up. As stated by others, the NFHS procedure being cited is for times when the officials actually screw up the throwin on their own accord.

First, there is no circumstance where you award team A two points and then give team A the ball. I'm sure that's not what you meant. Second when a team is attacking the wrong basket and the other team is defending that wrong basket, when you realize it, you stop it then. You don't have to wait for any certain thing to happen.

As posted earlier in this thread:

4-5-4: If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by just another ref

...Second when a team is attacking the wrong basket and the other team is defending that wrong basket, when you realize it, you stop it then. You don't have to wait for any certain thing to happen.

As posted earlier in this thread:

4-5-4: If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

I 90% agree. I would just argue that you stop action when you determine you've allowed it to get to the point of a mistake, not necessarily immediately if you made no mistake to begin with. So in my OP, I saw a team was defending the wrong basket, but there had been no officials' mistake to that point. I would say that once I realize I have failed to call some kind of applicable violation, now I have made a mistake in allowing the teams to continue going the wrong direction, and 4-5-4 applies at that point.

Alternatively, if there is a violation, a foul, or a goal at the wrong basket, now we have another opportunity to point and verbalize the proper direction (maybe a little more deliberately this time).

[bob jenkins]

As soon as the teams are playing "normal" basketball at the wrong ends, then stop it and fix it. Otherwise, someone is going to realize it and have an uncontested layup at the "right" end (or, you'll have to stop it with a violation -- and that doesn't make any sense if the player figured out the problem).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I 90% agree. I would just argue that you stop action when you determine you've allowed it to get to the point of a mistake, not necessarily immediately if you made no mistake to begin with.

If not immediately, when??

You're gonna have to stop play sooner or later. Why not sooner?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by just another ref

First, there is no circumstance where you award team A two points and then give team A the ball. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

Yep, that's what I meant - B gets points, A gets ball

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-5-4: If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

This is not a 4-5-4 situation. In this case the officials did not "permit" a team to go the wrong way. The officials had CORRECTLY indicated to both teams the CORRECT way to go but they went the wrong way.

If we incorrectly apply 4-5-4 to this situation as some are suggesting then by extention the refs should stop the game on a take-away if for some reason the teams run the wrong way. I've never seen a team stopped from scoring in the wrong basket but I have seen the refs stop play after a basket to get everyone back on the right track and make sure the right team inbounds the ball afterwards.

Its as simple as cause and effect. Ask yourself who "caused" the teams to set up and go the wrong way. If it was the ref (pointed the wrong way, lined up facing the wrong direction for a jump ball, put the ball in play under the wrong basket) then I agree that 4-5-4 applies. But in the OP the refs did nothing to influence where the teams took up positions or which basket they ran towards after the throw in.

And what if the situation in the OP was exactly the same except that A2 ran to his own basket and scored? I guess for the sake of Team B we should apply 4-5-4 and stop the game before he scores since this must have been "caused" by the same "error" that the refs made in the original post.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Ask yourself who "caused" the teams to set up and go the wrong way. If it was the ref (pointed the wrong way, lined up facing the wrong direction for a jump ball, put the all in play under the wrong basket) then I agree that 4-5-4 applies. But in the OP the refs did nothing to influence the where the teams took up positions or which basket they ran towards after the throw in.

Show me the part where it says it matters what the original cause of the problem is. It says "If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong way....." It tells you how to deal with the aftermath. If you see that both teams are actively playing the wrong way, and you don't stop it, then you are permitting it, which is indeed a mistake.

[La Rikardo]

At any reasonably high level of play (any level where the players/coaches should know better), assuming my crew and I have used proper mechanics to indicate the direction of play, I'm going to let play continue and see what happens. Our role is to observe the game, determine the facts of the game, and apply the rules to those events.

If A throws the ball into the FC and takes it into the BC, we have a violation. If A throws the ball into the BC, we start a count and eventually a violation if the ball remains in A's TC in the BC for ten seconds. If A1 throws the ball toward B's basket and gets his own "rebound", we may have a violation for traveling or illegal dribble depending on this circumstances. If A is "successful" in throwing the ball into B's basket, B will score two points and A will have a BCELTI. If B is also clueless, they'll think they have a throw-in and may attempt to make the ball live; if this occurs, B will be warned for delay per 4-47-3.

The point is that we don't really need to tell the teams that they may be confused. The rules do perfectly well to handle situations like this. It's almost impossible for more than 15-20 seconds to go by without a violation occurring in a situation like this. When that violation occurs, call it. If the players are confused, you explain the call and they'll quickly realize that they were going the wrong way.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Show me the part where it says it matters what the original cause of the problem is. It says "If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong way....." It tells you how to deal with the aftermath. If you see that both teams are actively playing the wrong way, and you don't stop it, then you are permitting it, which is indeed a mistake.

I can't show you what does not exist. We may "permit" a lot of things to happen during a game but that doesn't make it our fault when the outcome is less than desired. If we make an error then we should correct it as prescribed in the rules but not everything that we "permit" is an error. Sometimes its just bad basketball.

This reminds me of a middle school game I worked last year. A1 gets a rebound at his own goal and passes the ball out to A2 who turns and starts running to the wrong end. When he gets about 10 feet from the division line my partner jumps in front of him, puts both hands out and says "no, no, no; you are going the wrong way". I guess we should all be glad he didn't "permit" that mistake.

The difference between how you are applying 4-5-4 and how I am applying it is the way we are defining the word "mistake" and the emphasis you are placing on the word "permit".

You seem to be saying that although the officials did everything they were supposed to do because a enough people (10 players & 2 coaches) have screwed up which basket is their then the refs have made a mistake and permitted them to play at the wrong basket.

I am saying that if the refs have done what they were supposed to do (and they had in the OP) then it is on the coaches and the players to get it right. Again, let me clarify that if I saw them all setting up at the wrong ends I would try to tell them before putting the ball in play but I'm not delaying the game long because it ultimately rests on the coach to tell his players what to do, not me.

I have looked through several years of interpretations and reread that rule several times to find anything that supports your position but its just not there. If you can show me I will gladly change the way I apply this rule. If, by mistake, I permit the teams to go the wrong way then I will certainly stop the game to correct it. But as they are currently written, the rules do not allow us to halt the game just because the teams decide to go the wrong way.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Second when a team is attacking the wrong basket and the other team is defending that wrong basket, when you realize it, you stop it then. You don't have to wait for any certain thing to happen.

Stop posting this. You are dead wrong.

I even had a strange game several years ago in which a team wanted to win by at least 4, but not more than 10 due to tiebreakers for playoff seeding. They were attempting to avoid facing a specific team in the opening round.

Guess what happened in the last minute when this team was leading by 12? Yep, they purposely tried to score for the opponents and were being defended.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Stop posting this. You are dead wrong.

I even had a strange game several years ago in which a team wanted to win by at least 4, but not more than 10 due to tiebreakers for playoff seeding. They were attempting to avoid facing a specific team in the opening round.

Guess what happened in the last minute when this team was leading by 12? Yep, they purposely tried to score for the opponents and were being defended.

Couple of things here. First, the team who wanted to win by no more than 10 went up by more than that with plans to work it out at the end? And the other team knew about all this, took exception to it, and their competitive nature made them do whatever they could to ruin the other team's night? Second, if they're doing this, it's no longer basketball. Under the definition/description/explanation of THE GAME it says it consists of a team trying to throw the ball into its own basket. If it comes down to what you describe above, I'm thinking you might call the game and go home.

Or if we don't go for that, it really doesn't matter. Say the words "by mistake" are the key. If they start in the wrong direction, you step in one time and tell everybody, then it's no longer by mistake. Play on, but I don't see how the game could proceed very well due to the imminent threat of a backcourt violation.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by La Rikardo

At any reasonably high level of play (any level where the players/coaches should know better), assuming my crew and I have used proper mechanics to indicate the direction of play, I'm going to let play continue and see what happens. Our role is to observe the game, determine the facts of the game, and apply the rules to those events.

If A throws the ball into the FC and takes it into the BC, we have a violation. If A throws the ball into the BC, we start a count and eventually a violation if the ball remains in A's TC in the BC for ten seconds. If A1 throws the ball toward B's basket and gets his own "rebound", we may have a violation for traveling or illegal dribble depending on this circumstances. If A is "successful" in throwing the ball into B's basket, B will score two points and A will have a BCELTI. If B is also clueless, they'll think they have a throw-in and may attempt to make the ball live; if this occurs, B will be warned for delay per 4-47-3.

The point is that we don't really need to tell the teams that they may be confused. The rules do perfectly well to handle situations like this. It's almost impossible for more than 15-20 seconds to go by without a violation occurring in a situation like this. When that violation occurs, call it. If the players are confused, you explain the call and they'll quickly realize that they were going the wrong way.

Amen.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I even had a strange game several years ago in which a team wanted to win by at least 4, but not more than 10 due to tiebreakers for playoff seeding. They were attempting to avoid facing a specific team in the opening round.

Guess what happened in the last minute when this team was leading by 12? Yep, they purposely tried to score for the opponents and were being defended.

Curious. Did they achieve their 4-10 point desired window? If so, that's one of the cooler BB stories I've heard in a while.

Reminds me of NFL Week 17 about 20 years ago when in the NFC, seeding came down to overall points for (PF); something like seven higher tiebreakers were all dead even. So a couple of teams were just slingin' it downfield every chance they got to get as many points as possible. It was wild.