"Shooter Changes His Mind" Travel (Video)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No need to read minds, it's judgment. A pass is throwing, pushing, or batting the ball to another player. If there is no other player in the picture, there is no pass. If you don't want to call the violation, you could just call it a really bad shot.

There are four teammates (as well as five opponents, and the player himself) on a 4200 square foot court. I'm waiting until I see who next touches the ball. Why rush to judgment?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

There are four teammates (as well as five opponents, and the player himself) on a 4200 square foot court. I'm waiting until I see who next touches the ball. Why rush to judgment?

If he doesn't have the presence of mind to at least push it in the general direction of a teammate who is in the general vicinity, I'm not bailing him out.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he doesn't have the presence of mind to at least push it in the general direction of a teammate who is in the general vicinity, I'm not bailing him out.

Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ever hear of a lead bounce pass? Just kidding.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not sounding my whistle for a travel as soon as he releases the ball, because a lot of things can happen in the subsequent seconds that make this a legal play, including a steal by the defense. The only thing that would make it illegal, is if he's the first to touch the ball after the release. Only then is it a travel, for lifting the pivot foot before the ball is released to start a dribble.

A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

By the literal rule definition (dribble), I agree. But this physical act can also be the start of a pass (by rule, and by definition). After the ball is released from the ball handler's hand, a lot of other things can happen besides the continuation of said dribble (bounce pass to teammate, steal by defense, ball contacts boundary line, etc.). Why make a guess here, even an educated guess (good judgment based on experience), when by allowing the play to develop (something that all good officials, including you, will often do in many situations throughout the game), for a fraction of a second, will take away any guesswork on the part of the official? When I officiate, I hate making guesses (block/charge, foul/incidental, carrying, out of bounds, etc.). If I'm guessing, I'm probably not calling something. I like to be as sure as I can possibly be.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By the literal rule definition (dribble), I agree. But this physical act can also be the start of a pass (by rule, and by definition). After the ball is released from the ball handler's hand, a lot of other things can happen besides the continuation of said dribble (bounce pass to teammate, steal by defense, ball contacts boundary line, etc.). Why make a guess here, even an educated guess (good judgment based on experience), when by allowing the play to develop (something that all good officials, including you, will often do in many situations throughout the game), for a fraction of a second, will take away any guesswork on the part of the official? When I officiate, I hate making guesses (block/charge, foul/incidental, carrying, out of bounds, etc.). If I'm guessing, I'm probably not calling something.

Intent and purpose of the rule comes into play. If a player jumps he is not allowed to return to the floor before releasing the ball on a pass or dribble. If there is a teammate anywhere around and I can imagine that his release is directed toward that teammate, fine, I give him the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if there is no teammate and he simply drops the ball straight to the floor, no way can I consider this a pass. One might say this is a moot point, that if there is no teammate in the picture, either the defender will get the ball or the shooter will touch it. But other things can also happen. If the defender swipes at the ball at this point and knocks it out of bounds at this point, this would unfairly penalize the defense who did his job perfectly and created a turnover.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Intent and purpose of the rule comes into play. If a player jumps he is not allowed to return to the floor before releasing the ball on a pass or dribble. If there is a teammate anywhere around and I can imagine that his release is directed toward that teammate, fine, I give him the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if there is no teammate and he simply drops the ball straight to the floor, no way can I consider this a pass. One might say this is a moot point, that if there is no teammate in the picture, either the defender will get the ball or the shooter will touch it. But other things can also happen. If the defender swipes at the ball at this point and knocks it out of bounds at this point, this would unfairly penalize the defense who did his job perfectly and created a turnover.

I get your point, but I'm still doing it my way. I'm sometimes forced to do it (not ready for a train wreck), but I still hate guessing, and I'm not guessing here. It may take me an extra split second, but, at least, to me, it's worth it to get it right.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A subsequent touch is not necessary to define a dribble.

take a look at 4.15.4 C, 9.5 (these two basically same play) and 4.44.3 A.

they all seem to stand for the proposition that the player has to be the first to touch the ball for there to be a violation.
the 4.15.4 play is the one where A1 ends dribble and then throws it off his opponents backboard or an official, immediately recovers ball. wording says throwing ball off backboard or official is start of another dribble, PROVIDED A1 is the first to touch it after striking board or official.

4.44.3 play deals with the player who jumps to shoot, ball is touched by B but not knocked loose or out of his hand. shooter then drops ball to floor and is first to touch it--violation. clearly isn't trying to pass to another player in that play either. still violation is being first to touch it. the rules definitions/case plays make us wait to see what happens next before we are able to characterize what the drop of the ball actually is…if player who dropped it with no pivot foot is first to touch it--illegal dribble. if another player touches it first--pass. if the ball just sits there with no one touching --Limbo

i hear what your saying but i think rules require the touch.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BigCat

take a look at 4.15.4 C, 9.5 (these two basically same play) and 4.44.3 A.

they all seem to stand for the proposition that the player has to be the first to touch the ball for there to be a violation.
the 4.15.4 play is the one where A1 ends dribble and then throws it off his opponents backboard or an official, immediately recovers ball. wording says throwing ball off backboard or official is start of another dribble, PROVIDED A1 is the first to touch it after striking board or official.

4.44.3 play deals with the player who jumps to shoot, ball is touched by B but not knocked loose or out of his hand. shooter then drops ball to floor and is first to touch it--violation. clearly isn't trying to pass to another player in that play either. still violation is being first to touch it. the rules definitions/case plays make us wait to see what happens next before we are able to characterize what the drop of the ball actually is…if player who dropped it with no pivot foot is first to touch it--illegal dribble. if another player touches it first--pass. if the ball just sits there with no one touching --Limbo

i hear what your saying but i think rules require the touch.

I agree. Another good example is 7.1.1D A1 saves the ball from going OB by catching and "tossing" it back to the court. At this point we apparently should not interpret that "toss" as a dribble or a pass. But once A1 recovers the tossed ball it became the start of the dribble. Safe to say if a teammate recovered the tossed ball it would have been a pass .
IOW: "It ain't what it is until it is what it ain't."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

"It ain't what it is until it is what it ain't."

Confucius?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

take a look at 4.15.4 C, 9.5 (these two basically same play) and 4.44.3 A.

I'm glad that the cavalry finally showed up. I thought I was a goner. What took you guys so long? Rescuing a damsel in distress tied to a train track?

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

Seriously? You can dribble off the officials? That's a thing? How did I not know this when I was playing. Any of you ever had it happen?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i hear what your saying but i think rules require the touch.

Nope. We've had this conversation on the forum several times. The rule for a dribble does not require the ball to be touched after pushing it to the floor.

4.15.4 SITUATION A:

As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)

[potato]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)

Well question comes down to how do you determine if it's a Dribble, Pass, Dropped ball & how often would the refs treat such scenarios as a start of a dribble unless the player went & touch/bounce the ball again after ended his dribble. But of course due to the rules being written in black & white, it's technically possible to call any missed bounce pass as a start of a "dribble".

Wouldn't you consider how the play goes & how A1 reacts after he dropped the ball on the floor, and immediately calls for a double dribble the moment the ball bounces on the floor, in this case?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope. We've had this conversation on the forum several times. The rule for a dribble does not require the ball to be touched after pushing it to the floor.

4.15.4 SITUATION A:

As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred. (9-5)

Sorry, i lost track of this thread when they were talking about throwing ball off official.
I agree with your statement above about a DRIBBLE not requiring a touch after pushing it to the floor. that is clearly what the case play you set forth says. however, the OP involves TRAVEL violation 4-44-3/ and 9-4. even though the language used in the case book play i cited says illegal dribble it is travel. that is where the violation is listed in the rules. the case book play i cited 4.44.3 something has virtually the same facts as the OP and requires the player who drops the ball to touch it before there is a violation. here is how I reconcile the two plays.

In your play above, the player has dribbled, ended a dribble by letting ball rest on hand and then pushed it to floor again. when this player pushes ball to floor after leting it rest on his hand he HAS A PIVOT FOOT so he meets the defintion of when a DRIBBLE begins--that being ball pushed to floor etc while pivot foot on floor. i agree with camron, just another and you that judgment is required but if he pushes ball down, like he has done a thousand times before and im 150% sure i will call illegal dribble- 9-5 --he has dribbled again. it is a violation without him touching it again.

in the OP and the 4.44.3, play the player jumps, has both feet off of the floor and drops it to the floor. that play says he has to be first to touch it for a violation. Why? because when he jumps in the air and drops it he does so after pivot foot has been lifted. that action does not meet the definition of when a dribble begins in 4-15. it isnt a dribble at all. as the 4.44.3 play says after the drop subsequent rules apply. the touch makes it travel. confusion is created in the play by using the term "illegal dribble." but as you see, that violation is contained in the travel rule.

so in summary, my position is that the 4-15 play is correct because the player does push ball to floor with pivot foot on ground a second time. it is described as "to continue the dribble." that is the 150% sure scenario for me. the subsequent touch is not necessary to call 9-5, illegal dribble.--- the 4.44.3 case play is correct because that player, in the air, drops it after both feet in air. that act does not meet the definition of when a DRIBBLE BEGINS in 4-15. if, that player, as in case play, is first to touch it, it is TRAVEL. 4-44-3 and 9-4.

Perhaps i am all wrong. if i am, please let me know politely. not because i cant handle your sarcasm, but because i fear, when you do that to folks, others may avoid the discussion because they dont want to be ripped. That IS the best advice I can give. AND...if i'm correct on the above...i wont send you back to freshman ball....like you did Bryan...