Illegal defense?

[JoJo10]

I have a question about defending the low post that i'm hoping someone can help with.

I'm only 5'7" , but am a beast on the low post and boxing people out due to my low center of gravity. I've noticed that when most guys get tired of me backing into them on the low post, they put their knee in between my legs (from behind) and the top of their thigh under my butt (almost like using their leg as a chair). They also do this when I am boxing them out for a rebound. When this is done, it makes it virtually impossible for me to get any leverage and box out/ back into. Due to most people being taller than me, this technique lifts me off the ground and gives me no chance.

So, my question is, is this a legal maneuver? If not, what is the call?

Thank you in advance!

[bob jenkins]

If the defender displaces you or prevents freedom, of movement , it's a foul on the defender.

If you displace the defender as you back into the defender, it's a foul on you.

[crosscountry55]

You're probably not going to like this answer, but what you describe as "boxing out" is actually a pushing foul for displacing the person behind you, who has just as much a right to his spot on the floor as you do to yours. Will such a foul be called every time? No. We officials have to judge what contact is marginal versus what is illegal. A good indicator of illegal is if you back into the other player and then come away with the rebound. That's a foul on you; we judge the whole play, start to finish (at least that's our goal; we try to have a patient whistle on ball).

On the flip side, if you're not trying to overcome your height disadvantage by backing down the person behind you, and said person still puts a knee in your back, then that's a pushing foul on the other person. If I see that knee, what I'm looking for is if you end up unfavorably underneath the basket and the other guy gets the rebound. However, if he goes straight up and just rebounds above your head, I'm not going to penalize him for being tall. The crowd will say, "over the back, ref!" That is meaningless to me. I'm judging who displaces who and the subsequent result. If both players are pushing each other and neither is moving much as a result, I think that's just good hard basketball and I'm probably going to pass on a whistle unless shenanigans are going on between the two of you. If shenanigans, I'll probably verbalize, "easy, easy!" or "knock it off!" If it continues, I could always call a double foul. That's rare; I only have to use that tool maybe once a season, twice tops.

Great question and it's nice to see a player in the forum asking officials what we're looking for. Good on 'ya.

Disclaimer: I am not a coach. Your coach may tell you to push the envelope to see what you can get away with. Every official and crew is different, and good coaches test their boundaries on a game-by-game basis. So listen to your coach!

[JoJo10]

First, thank you both for your replies!

I wanted to re-phrase some of my comments, as I see there is a more 'general' rule (Displacement) than a specific call. There is NO displacement going on by me, with or without the ball. When I have the ball on the low post off an entry pass, I'm assuming I have a right to the basket, as long as I do not 'displace' the man behind me guarding (ie. grabbing his arm or hooking with my non-dribbling arm); and also assuming his feet are not planted thereby drawing a charge!?

When I said 'boxing out', again, this is described as being in between the basket and the man asserting rebound position, assuming no displacement on my part. (I understand this is a judgement call by the ref).

Also, just for clarification crosscountry55, you wrote - 'puts a knee in your back'.
The maneuver is, the defender (man behind me) is putting his knee between my legs (not my back) where I can see his knee cap when i look down... AND using his thigh as a chair to lift me up. Again, no displacement on my part seeing as I cannot move because my feet are raised off the ground from his thigh.

If two players are pushing each other back-and-forth, i agree, this is good hard basketball; However, if both are pushing back-and-forth and yet the man behind is grabbing the shirt of the player he is guarding (with no displacement) that would be a foul if you see it, correct?

Gentlemen, again thank you for your response. So you know, I am not trying to debate, be combative or look for a reason to compensate for my height. You are the experts. I just want to make sure I am describing this clearly.

Thank you again for any further insight!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JoJo10

When I have the ball on the low post off an entry pass, I'm assuming I have a right to the basket, as long as I do not 'displace' the man behind me guarding (ie. grabbing his arm or hooking with my non-dribbling arm); and also assuming his feet are not planted thereby drawing a charge!?

Displacement is moving him off his spot, not holding or hooking.

His feet don't need to be "planted" to draw a charge.

You do not have a "right" to the basket.

[Mark Padgett]

The next time he puts his knee between your legs, turn to him, smile and tell him it really feels good. Then ask him what he's doing after the game.

I'm pretty sure he'll stop after you do that. Of course, if he doesn't stop, you'll be able to enjoy an overtime together.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by JoJo10

First, thank you both for your replies!

I wanted to re-phrase some of my comments, as I see there is a more 'general' rule (Displacement) than a specific call. There is NO displacement going on by me, with or without the ball. When I have the ball on the low post off an entry pass, I'm assuming I have a right to the basket, as long as I do not 'displace' the man behind me guarding (ie. grabbing his arm or hooking with my non-dribbling arm); and also assuming his feet are not planted thereby drawing a charge!?

When I said 'boxing out', again, this is described as being in between the basket and the man asserting rebound position, assuming no displacement on my part. (I understand this is a judgement call by the ref).

Also, just for clarification crosscountry55, you wrote - 'puts a knee in your back'.
The maneuver is, the defender (man behind me) is putting his knee between my legs (not my back) where I can see his knee cap when i look down... AND using his thigh as a chair to lift me up. Again, no displacement on my part seeing as I cannot move because my feet are raised off the ground from his thigh.

If two players are pushing each other back-and-forth, i agree, this is good hard basketball; However, if both are pushing back-and-forth and yet the man behind is grabbing the shirt of the player he is guarding (with no displacement) that would be a foul if you see it, correct?

Gentlemen, again thank you for your response. So you know, I am not trying to debate, be combative or look for a reason to compensate for my height. You are the experts. I just want to make sure I am describing this clearly.

Thank you again for any further insight!

Assuming you're not backing down an opponent and/or displacing, if you receive the ball in the low post, you don't necessarily have a right to the basket, per se, but you do have a right to your position on the floor, and if there's unoccupied space between you and a defender, you can move into that space. If the defender gets two feet shoulder width apart before you leave the floor, he has established legal guarding position (LGP), and any contact thereafter is your responsibility, no matter what the defender does provided he is not moving toward you. He can move backward or laterally to maintain LGP; his feet don't necessarily have to be "planted." If he doesn't get LGP or he gives it up by moving toward you at contact, that's a blocking foul on him.

With respect to boxing out, we officials like to say, "you can box out, but you can't 'clear out.'" Here's the rule regarding rebounding, Rule 4-37, Articles 2 and 3:

"ART. 2...To obtain or maintain legal rebounding position, a player may not:
a. Displace, charge or push an opponent.
b. Extend shoulders, hips, knees or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in a position other than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms or elbows occurs.
c. Bend his/her body in an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
d. Violate the principle of verticality.
ART. 3...Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court, provided the player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

So yeah, if you don't back down and find a knee between your legs, a good official should call that foul on the player behind you. That's crap. So is grabbing the shirt, but that's not often as obvious to the official as it "feels" to the player. But if I see it and it's clearly one-sided, I'm coming out with a holding foul if it affects the play (or if it's egregious regardless of the outcome of the play).

Again, great questions. I've enjoyed thinking about this. Thanks.

[JoJo10]

"Rule 4-37, Articles 2 and 3"

crosscountry55 , thank you very much for your generous explanations, for posting the rule and most of all, understanding my terminology (from a 'player's' perspective).

Have a great new year!

[Hugh Refner]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

The next time he puts his knee between your legs, turn to him, smile and tell him it really feels good. Then ask him what he's doing after the game.

I'm pretty sure he'll stop after you do that. Of course, if he doesn't stop, you'll be able to enjoy an overtime together.