Brainfart Situation

[bob jenkins]

FED: A PC foul is a common foul. A flagrant foul is NOT a common foul.

That should lead the OP to the correct answer.

(And the concept is the same for other levels)

[crosscountry55]

Yup. So for NFHS, procedure is:

1. Signal the foul and close down on the scene to prevent escalation or a fight. Then, if it's not 100% obvious, hold the closed fist foul signal and confer with your partners to confirm whether intentional/flagrant. If it is, give the crossed arms signal. If it was 100% obvious, you can give that signal right away. The crew should make a note of who B1 is so we get the shooter right; if you don't do this, since the procedure looks like a technical foul at first, the opposing coach might just send any old shooter to the line.

2. When reporting, there is no separate signal for flagrant, so announce it at the table, and then tell Coach A that A1 is disqualified for a flagrant foul. Start the 20 second replacement period and then get away from the table and let your partner(s) handle the rest; that's not the time for a discussion with the coach, cuz chances are he/she won't like you very much right then.

3. Since this occurred in A's backcourt, B1 (or his/her sub if B1 is injured and cannot shoot) will shoot 2 with the lane cleared under the same basket.

4. Then B gets a throw in at the spot nearest where the foul occurred, which sounds like it's under the basket on one side or the other.

I don't know as much about NCAA. This is probably a Flagrant 2 foul, but if you had a monitor I think you're required to go confirm that. Subsequent procedure is the same as NFHS for a Flagrant foul, I believe.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Yup. So for NFHS, procedure is:

1. Signal the foul and close down on the scene to prevent escalation or a fight. Then, if it's not 100% obvious, hold the closed fist foul signal and confer with your partners to confirm whether intentional/flagrant. If it is, give the crossed arms signal.

A) I don't think you need to (or should) keep the fist up while you are conferring with your partner(s). By this time, everyone knows you have a foul.

B) BY NFHS mechanics, the "crossed arms" is only for an intentional foul. There is no signal for a flagrant foul. I do recognize that some areas have such a signal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I do recognize that some areas have such a signal.

Link below: Earl Weaver at his best (or worst):

http://youtu.be/1JUlf_Ljzg8

[kstiles99]

Every case I have described in this thread is relevant to NFHS rules only

[Adam]

Originally Posted by kstiles99

Every case I have described in this thread is relevant to NFHS rules only

I only ask because in NFHS, flagrant is a disqualifying foul. Most likely, your OP would be an intentional foul unless you thought the player was trying to hurt his opponent.

[Mark Padgett]

Be sure to take lessons from this guy if you're going to call intentional fouls.

[kstiles99]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

FED: A PC foul is a common foul. A flagrant foul is NOT a common foul.

That should lead the OP to the correct answer.

(And the concept is the same for other levels)

What's your point? Are you saying we can't have a flagrant pc foul?

[kstiles99]

You mean it can only be a pc foul OR a flagrant foul? One or the other right? Because if it is flagrant.. It doesn't matter who is in control of the ball, the offended player/sub gets 2 shots and the ball.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by kstiles99

What's your point? Are you saying we can't have a flagrant pc foul?

Yes he is. The foul was on a player on the offense with control of the ball, this much is true. But that alone doesn't make it a PC foul because the resulting penalty enforcement for a Flagrant Foul is different. It's a definitions thing. The semantics matter, especially when taking a rules exam (every year a few T/F questions try to trip you up with along these lines, so read closely!).

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by kstiles99

What's your point? Are you saying we can't have a flagrant pc foul?

That's exactly what he's saying. A PC foul is, by definition, a common foul. A flagrant foul is, by definition, NOT a common foul. Therefore, there can't be a "flagrant PC foul."

[kstiles99]

I think I have it now. Tell me if this is right.

It can only be a pc foul OR an intentional/flagrant foul. One or the other right? Because if it is flagrant.. It doesn't matter who is in control of the ball, the offended player/sub gets 2 shots and the ball for an inbound

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by kstiles99

I think I have it now. Tell me if this is right.

It can only be a pc foul OR a flagrant foul. One or the other right? Because if it is flagrant.. It doesn't matter who is in control of the ball, the offended player/sub gets 2 shots and the ball for an inbound

You're on the right track. In NFHS, it could also be an intentional foul, which is the same as flagrant minus the disqualification. That's a judgment on whether the contact was excessive versus savage/violent.

And to muddy the waters even more, if B1 were to retaliate and get a T, now your flagrant foul is part of a false double foul.

[kstiles99]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

You're on the right track. In NFHS, it could also be an intentional foul, which is the same as flagrant minus the disqualification. That's a judgment on whether the contact was excessive versus savage/violent.

And to muddy the waters even more, if B1 were to retaliate and get a T, now your flagrant foul is part of a false double foul.

Well let's see what we'd do if this happened.

I was always taught to shoot FTs in the order the fouls occurred.

This means B1 would shoot the flagrant FTs (unless the T was his second (or 5th personal) in which case his substitute would shoot)

Then A1s sub would shoot the technicals.

Now we give the ball to team A at the division line because of technical foul procedure.
Please tell me I got all of that

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by kstiles99

Well let's see what we'd do if this happened.

I was always taught to shoot FTs in the order the fouls occurred.

This means B1 would shoot the flagrant FTs (unless the T was his second (or 5th personal) in which case his substitute would shoot)

Then A1s sub would shoot the technicals.

Now we give the ball to team A at the division line because of technical foul procedure.
Please tell me I got all of that

Almost. B1 would shoot two free throws unless he was injured as a result of the foul or was disqualified for whatever reason, in which case his substitute would shoot the FTs. If there is no substitute available, any teammate may shoot the FTs as selected by the captain or head coach. Then, since B1's foul is a technical foul, any eligible A team member may shoot the two FTs (or two different shooters if they want). Then A will get a throw-in at the division line.