Brainfart Situation

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Yup. So for NFHS, procedure is:

1. Signal the foul and close down on the scene to prevent escalation or a fight. Then, if it's not 100% obvious, hold the closed fist foul signal and confer with your partners to confirm whether intentional/flagrant. If it is, give the crossed arms signal.

A) I don't think you need to (or should) keep the fist up while you are conferring with your partner(s). By this time, everyone knows you have a foul.

B) BY NFHS mechanics, the "crossed arms" is only for an intentional foul. There is no signal for a flagrant foul. I do recognize that some areas have such a signal.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by kstiles99

Situation:

A1 grabs rebound and is now on offense in his backcourt being closely guarded by B1. As he lands, A1 swings both elbows and makes flagrant contact to the side of the head of B1. Boom.. Flagrant offensive foul on A1.

How do we continue play again? Its 2 shots and the ball underneath for B1 correct?

What rule set are you using?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I do recognize that some areas have such a signal.

Link below: Earl Weaver at his best (or worst):

http://youtu.be/1JUlf_Ljzg8

[kstiles99]

Every case I have described in this thread is relevant to NFHS rules only

[Adam]

Originally Posted by kstiles99

Every case I have described in this thread is relevant to NFHS rules only

I only ask because in NFHS, flagrant is a disqualifying foul. Most likely, your OP would be an intentional foul unless you thought the player was trying to hurt his opponent.

[Mark Padgett]

Be sure to take lessons from this guy if you're going to call intentional fouls.

[OKREF]

NFHS. Isn't a flagrant foul classified as a technical foul. Or is only if it is a dead ball

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by OKREF

NFHS. Isn't a flagrant foul classified as a technical foul. Or is only if it is a dead ball

Flagrant personal = Live ball

Flagrant technical = Dead ball

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Flagrant personal = Live ball

Flagrant technical = Dead ball

Careful. You could have an unsporting flagrant technical foul during a live ball. You could also have a flagrant personal foul on or by an airborne shooter while the ball is dead.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

Careful. You could have an unsporting flagrant technical foul during a live ball. You could also have a flagrant personal foul on or by an airborne shooter while the ball is dead.

Correct in that a noncontact technical foul during a live ball could be a flagrant technical.

The ball is not dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by zm1283

The ball is not dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor.

Not according to 4-19-1 . . . "A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead."

It is quite often the case that officials must judge contact by or on an airborne shooter, after the ball is dead, (as in, the ball already having passed through the basket). We consider such occurances to be an "exception" to the main portion of the rule.
I realize that it's considered to be semantics, by some, but the consequences of such an exception is the reason for the NOTE that acconpanies 4-19-1 . . . "Contact after the ball has become dead is incidental unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter."
And the reasoning for the NCAA restricted zone is partially due to the realities of such necceassary judgements.

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by zm1283

The ball is not dead until the airborne shooter returns to the floor.

Huh, I don't see any reference to the airborne shooter in 6-7.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by La Rikardo

Huh, I don't see any reference to the airborne shooter in 6-7.

Exception: (after 6-7-9)

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Exception: (after 6-7-9)

I guess I didn't look closely enough. That was embarrassing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Exception: (after 6-7-9)

Doesn't apply to every airborne shooter, in fact, it doesn't apply to most situations where the ball would be dead anyway for a foul on an airborne shooter.

The exception reads:

The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:

a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred....
d. Article 9 (a violation) occurs by an opponent

So, if A1 dunks the ball and is fouled on his way down, this is a dead ball foul, but not a technical foul.

If A1 dunks the ball and B1 pushes A2 out of frustration with a screen while A1 is on his way down, this would be a dead ball contact technical foul on B1.

Otherwise, the note in 4-19-1 isn't necessary:

Contact after the ball has become dead is incidental unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or committed by or on an airborne shooter.