The "running bobble"

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Wouldn't an illegal dribble indicate that there was one dribble that ended? "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of..."

In the OP the player never dribbled. So if the player intentionally batted the ball in the air (had control) and moved his pivot foot isn't this a travel?

The only way a bat = control is when it is a part of a dribble. If a rebound comes off and a player bats it into the air he may (hypothetically) do so an unlimited number of times and proceed from one end of the court to the other without violation.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

If he's purposefully "bobbling" the ball, you have a dribble that violates 4-15-2.

this section would not apply unless it happened "during the dribble." if you pass it to me and i bobble it down the floor on purpose, never pushing or batting the ball to the floor, this section doesnt apply.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Do not even try that argument with me. Either A2 had gained control of the ball or he has not.

Do not even try that argument with me, it's a violation either way.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Wouldn't an illegal dribble indicate that there was one dribble that ended? "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of..."

In the OP the player never dribbled. So if the player intentionally batted the ball in the air (had control) and moved his pivot foot isn't this a travel?

Again, see 4-15-2

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Do not even try that argument with me, it's a violation either way.

It is NOT a violation either way. Either the player is bobbling, fumbling would be the better word to use to describe the situation, the ball or the player has player control; you cannot have both at the same time.

I am going back to bed now.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It is NOT a violation either way. Either the player is bobbling, fumbling would be the better word to use to describe the situation, the ball or the player has player control; you cannot have both at the same time.

I'm not saying you can have both at the same time, but there is gray area between a real fumble and controlled "fumble" or "tap" which equates to player control. If you want to pick nits and say "oh you can't use the word fumble to describe anything controlled" that's fine but let's focus on the bigger picture here of how to get the call right, not argue semantics.

[ballgame99]

I worked a 3 whistle game with my assignor the other night (I don't do much 3 man, so I felt like it was an audition) and he called a travel on a running bobble like this. I didn't feel it was a travel. I did NOT inform him that he was wrong.

[Rich]

This conversation reminds me of people who argue which signal to give at the table on a defensive foul. Not interesting and not important.

It's unlikely I'm initiating a conversation during the game if a partner calls a violation here unless it's in my primary.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I'm not saying you can have both at the same time, but there is gray area between a real fumble and controlled "fumble" .

There are lots of "gray areas" -- that's why they need officials.

While I'm not real big on semantics, on an official's forum, I think we should strive to use the proper terms -- and "controlled fumble" is an oxymoron.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There are lots of "gray areas" -- that's why they need officials.

While I'm not real big on semantics, on an official's forum, I think we should strive to use the proper terms -- and "controlled fumble" is an oxymoron.

Bob:

I agree. The point I have been trying to make is that either A1 is on control of the ball or he is not. We cannot have both at the same time.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

this section would not apply unless it happened "during the dribble." if you pass it to me and i bobble it down the floor on purpose, never pushing or batting the ball to the floor, this section doesnt apply.

Sure it does. 1. It's an advantage not intended by the rules. 2. It's actually against the dribbling rule.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

Sure it does. 1. It's an advantage not intended by the rules. 2. It's actually against the dribbling rule.

I'm sorry, i disagree completely. 4-15-2 says "during a dribble" --definition of dribble as you know says intentionally bat or push ball to floor….

for this section to apply i first have to bat or push ball to the floor. if, after that, i push it out in front of me and run and touch it again before it touches floor i have violated this section. in my example and the op a player started bobbling on receipt of a pass. he never started a dribble…the ball has never hit the floor. it simply cannot be "during a dribble" which is required before this section applies.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'm sorry, i disagree completely. 4-15-2 says "during a dribble" --definition of dribble as you know says intentionally bat or push ball to floor….

for this section to apply i first have to bat or push ball to the floor. if, after that, i push it out in front of me and run and touch it again before it touches floor i have violated this section. in my example and the op a player started bobbling on receipt of a pass. he never started a dribble…the ball has never hit the floor. it simply cannot be "during a dribble" which is required before this section applies.

Is your point that this is really a travelling violation? Or that it's not a violation at all? Or, something else?

Just trying to understand.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Is your point that this is really a travelling violation? Or that it's not a violation at all? Or, something else?

Just trying to understand.

my thoughts
1. the dribble rule does not begin to come into play in this example because the ball has not been pushed/batted etc to the floor--cannot be "during dribble." cannot be a violation under that rule.

2. if it's anything it would have to be a travel. the closest thing we have to it is the play where i pass the ball up and go run under an catch it. moving 5 feet etc. that is travel. in reality, in a live game, i don't think I'm going to see a player bobbling/tipping the ball in such a controlled manner that i am going to even consider travel. a player can intend to bat the ball but it might go 1 foot one time and 2 feet the next…moving left and right. just because he intends to bat/bobble the ball doesn't make me think anything is wrong. (oxymoron as you say)

3. in the hypothetical world--if you pass me the ball over my head and i tip it up--and then, because of tip drill nightmares, i start walking down the floor with arms raised tipping the ball 4 to 6 inches over my head--never catching it, then I'm going to think about travel. the player is never holding the ball so i can see not calling travel. however, he is moving from point A to point B similar to passing it to himself. as i said, i havnt seen yet and don't think i will see batting/tipping so controlled and for a period long enough to make me think travel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

my thoughts
1. the dribble rule does not begin to come into play in this example because the ball has not been pushed/batted etc to the floor--cannot be "during dribble." cannot be a violation under that rule.

2. if it's anything it would have to be a travel. the closest thing we have to it is the play where i pass the ball up and go run under an catch it. moving 5 feet etc. that is travel. in reality, in a live game, i don't think I'm going to see a player bobbling/tipping the ball in such a controlled manner that i am going to even consider travel. a player can intend to bat the ball but it might go 1 foot one time and 2 feet the next…moving left and right. just because he intends to bat/bobble the ball doesn't make me think anything is wrong. (oxymoron as you say)

3. in the hypothetical world--if you pass me the ball over my head and i tip it up--and then, because of tip drill nightmares, i start walking down the floor with arms raised tipping the ball 4 to 6 inches over my head--never catching it, then I'm going to think about travel. the player is never holding the ball so i can see not calling travel. however, he is moving from point A to point B similar to passing it to himself. as i said, i havnt seen yet and don't think i will see batting/tipping so controlled and for a period long enough to make me think travel.

I see what you're saying. I see this is a some sort of loophole hybrid situation. If the player was holding it first and threw it in the air only to start tapping it upwards, you'd call a travel based on the case play. This, however, used to be considered an illegal air dribble.
If the player was in the middle of a dribble and started doing it, you'd have an illegal dribble.

The rules clearly state that we aren't to let players take advantage of the rules to gain an unintended advantage, and I think this would fall in that category (think of a post player who is able to move this way without the shorter opponents being able to touch the ball).

Whether you call it a travel or an illegal dribble doesn't matter, IMO. It's a violation.