5 second count

[so cal lurker]

Simple question (checking to see if I owe a ref an apology...):

A player is dribbling the ball while closely guarded. After 4 seconds, he stops the dribble and holds the ball while closely guarded. Did the 5 second count reset when he stopped the dribble? NFHS.

[jTheUmp]

Yes.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Yes.

Thx - that's what I thought. (The referee, who called a 5 second count 1 sec after he picked up the dribble disagreed.) Is it the same in NCAA?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Thx - that's what I thought. (The referee, who called a 5 second count 1 sec after he picked up the dribble disagreed.) Is it the same in NCAA?

Yes for NCAAM. In NCAAW, there's no count while dribbling.

[BillyMac]

The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five-second counts may occur on the same ball handler, holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five-second count ends when a dribbler gets his or her head and shoulders ahead of the defender.

So a ball handler, who is closely guarded, can legally possess the ball for twelve seconds; holding the ball for four seconds, followed by dribbling the ball for four seconds, followed by holding the ball for four seconds.

[SAK]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Simple question (checking to see if I owe a ref an apology...):

A player is dribbling the ball while closely guarded. After 4 seconds, he stops the dribble and holds the ball while closely guarded. Did the 5 second count reset when he stopped the dribble? NFHS.

Yes the count does start fresh. A player may hold, dribble, and hold the ball again for just under the five count each time.

That said it is likely that you owe a ref an apology for something, even if it is not this situation.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

A player is dribbling the ball while closely guarded. After 4 seconds, he stops the dribble and holds the ball while closely guarded. Did the 5 second count reset when he stopped the dribble? NFHS.

How did you know the official was only at four seconds? It could be that he got to five seconds in his head just before the dribbler picked up the ball.

That said, if this was the case, the whistle should have come as the dribbler was picking up the dribble, not a whole second later.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The count continues even if defenders switch.

True in NFHS. Not true in NCAA, where the defender must be the same opponent (9-15-3 in both NCAA rulebooks).

By understanding this distinction, you'll be able to politely defend your call when you get the "They switched out!" argument from the high school coach. Chances are good that the coach is unaware of the rules difference.

[Hugh Refner]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Chances are good that the coach is unaware of the rules difference.

Whaaaat? A coach not knowing a rule? You've go to be kidding.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Hugh Refner

Whaaaat? A coach not knowing a rule? You've go to be kidding.

I was telling a 7th grade boys team yesterday that they were only supposed to have one color for their leg sleeves when they asked the coach if I had the rule right.

"I don't know. I don't open the rule book. Whatever he says is right."

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

How did you know the official was only at four seconds? It could be that he got to five seconds in his head just before...

This begs two questions:
1. May an official call a 5 second closely guarded violation based on "five seconds in his head", not having given the mandatory visual count?
2. Would any official want to?

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

How did you know the official was only at four seconds? It could be that he got to five seconds in his head just before the dribbler picked up the ball.

Well, if his response was that the 5 second count expired before he stopped the dribble, I woudl have known he knew the dribble restarted the count (and that he had a fast count ). But when I said that, he tried to explain to me why I was wrong, making me wonder if I was and bringing me back here . . .
and since we were in a tournament and would see him the next day, I would have apologized if I was wrong, as I wasn't very patient when he tried to "teach" me the rule . . .

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Freddy

This begs two questions:
1. May an official call a 5 second closely guarded violation based on "five seconds in his head", not having given the mandatory visual count?
2. Would any official want to?

Great questions.

You won't find the answers in the rule book, but not giving a visual count is a failure to use proper mechanics, and this mechanic is important because coaches are looking for it to advise their players. For example, often when I start a visual count I'll hear something like "You've got a count, Jimmy." So if you didn't have a visual count and called a violation (3 seconds notwithstanding), you're on your own when the commissioner calls you.

That said, the number in my head and the number of arm strokes I've issued are not always exactly the same, and that's ok because I'm the only one who knows. Deciding on when to start and stop that count are matters of good game management. Sometimes I'll start a count 1-2 seconds in when I expected a player to drive or make a swing pass but they unexpectedly don't. Other times I'll count to six just to make sure I didn't count too fast. In any case, I always give the benefit of the doubt to the offense if it's close.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Freddy

This begs two questions:
1. May an official call a 5 second closely guarded violation based on "five seconds in his head", not having given the mandatory visual count?
2. Would any official want to?

Yes.

No, but sometimes it happens.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five-second counts may occur on the same ball handler, holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five-second count ends when a dribbler gets his or her head and shoulders ahead of the defender.

So a ball handler, who is closely guarded, can legally possess the ball for twelve seconds; holding the ball for four seconds, followed by dribbling the ball for four seconds, followed by holding the ball for four seconds.

But what about the Fore-Court and the Mid-Court counts.

MTD, Sr.