The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 09:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 734
5 second count

Simple question (checking to see if I owe a ref an apology...):

A player is dribbling the ball while closely guarded. After 4 seconds, he stops the dribble and holds the ball while closely guarded. Did the 5 second count reset when he stopped the dribble? NFHS.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 09:07pm
TODO: creative title here
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,250
Yes.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 09:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 734
Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
Yes.

Thx - that's what I thought. (The referee, who called a 5 second count 1 sec after he picked up the dribble disagreed.) Is it the same in NCAA?
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 09:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
Thx - that's what I thought. (The referee, who called a 5 second count 1 sec after he picked up the dribble disagreed.) Is it the same in NCAA?
Yes for NCAAM. In NCAAW, there's no count while dribbling.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 10:41am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
The Twelve Second Rule ...

The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five-second counts may occur on the same ball handler, holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five-second count ends when a dribbler gets his or her head and shoulders ahead of the defender.

So a ball handler, who is closely guarded, can legally possess the ball for twelve seconds; holding the ball for four seconds, followed by dribbling the ball for four seconds, followed by holding the ball for four seconds.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:54am
SAK SAK is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
Simple question (checking to see if I owe a ref an apology...):

A player is dribbling the ball while closely guarded. After 4 seconds, he stops the dribble and holds the ball while closely guarded. Did the 5 second count reset when he stopped the dribble? NFHS.
Yes the count does start fresh. A player may hold, dribble, and hold the ball again for just under the five count each time.

That said it is likely that you owe a ref an apology for something, even if it is not this situation.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
A player is dribbling the ball while closely guarded. After 4 seconds, he stops the dribble and holds the ball while closely guarded. Did the 5 second count reset when he stopped the dribble? NFHS.
How did you know the official was only at four seconds? It could be that he got to five seconds in his head just before the dribbler picked up the ball.

That said, if this was the case, the whistle should have come as the dribbler was picking up the dribble, not a whole second later.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The count continues even if defenders switch.
True in NFHS. Not true in NCAA, where the defender must be the same opponent (9-15-3 in both NCAA rulebooks).

By understanding this distinction, you'll be able to politely defend your call when you get the "They switched out!" argument from the high school coach. Chances are good that the coach is unaware of the rules difference.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:24am
Official Fiveum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Eurasia - no, Myasia
Posts: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Chances are good that the coach is unaware of the rules difference.
Whaaaat? A coach not knowing a rule? You've go to be kidding.
__________________
I don't know what "signature" means.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Refner View Post
Whaaaat? A coach not knowing a rule? You've go to be kidding.
I was telling a 7th grade boys team yesterday that they were only supposed to have one color for their leg sleeves when they asked the coach if I had the rule right.

"I don't know. I don't open the rule book. Whatever he says is right."
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:02pm
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
How did you know the official was only at four seconds? It could be that he got to five seconds in his head just before...
This begs two questions:
1. May an official call a 5 second closely guarded violation based on "five seconds in his head", not having given the mandatory visual count?
2. Would any official want to?
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 734
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
How did you know the official was only at four seconds? It could be that he got to five seconds in his head just before the dribbler picked up the ball.
Well, if his response was that the 5 second count expired before he stopped the dribble, I woudl have known he knew the dribble restarted the count (and that he had a fast count ). But when I said that, he tried to explain to me why I was wrong, making me wonder if I was and bringing me back here . . .
and since we were in a tournament and would see him the next day, I would have apologized if I was wrong, as I wasn't very patient when he tried to "teach" me the rule . . .
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
This begs two questions:
1. May an official call a 5 second closely guarded violation based on "five seconds in his head", not having given the mandatory visual count?
2. Would any official want to?
Great questions.

You won't find the answers in the rule book, but not giving a visual count is a failure to use proper mechanics, and this mechanic is important because coaches are looking for it to advise their players. For example, often when I start a visual count I'll hear something like "You've got a count, Jimmy." So if you didn't have a visual count and called a violation (3 seconds notwithstanding), you're on your own when the commissioner calls you.

That said, the number in my head and the number of arm strokes I've issued are not always exactly the same, and that's ok because I'm the only one who knows. Deciding on when to start and stop that count are matters of good game management. Sometimes I'll start a count 1-2 seconds in when I expected a player to drive or make a swing pass but they unexpectedly don't. Other times I'll count to six just to make sure I didn't count too fast. In any case, I always give the benefit of the doubt to the offense if it's close.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
This begs two questions:
1. May an official call a 5 second closely guarded violation based on "five seconds in his head", not having given the mandatory visual count?
2. Would any official want to?
Yes.

No, but sometimes it happens.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:15pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five-second counts may occur on the same ball handler, holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five-second count ends when a dribbler gets his or her head and shoulders ahead of the defender.

So a ball handler, who is closely guarded, can legally possess the ball for twelve seconds; holding the ball for four seconds, followed by dribbling the ball for four seconds, followed by holding the ball for four seconds.

But what about the Fore-Court and the Mid-Court counts.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
5 Second Count Refsmitty Basketball 20 Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:01pm
25-second count Forksref Football 33 Tue Aug 24, 2004 04:08pm
25-second Count with 4-man Ed Hickland Football 10 Mon Aug 23, 2004 04:59pm
10 second count Tom Grady Lacrosse 1 Fri Apr 23, 2004 09:49pm
10 second count Ridgeben Basketball 6 Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:13am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:52am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1