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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 01:29pm
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Overtime, Or Not ???

I worked a scrimmage today with an official who worked a freshman game yesterday and he had this situation:

Fourth period game clock is running down. Team A is down by two points and has the ball. A1 shoots from near the three point arc, and releases the try before the horn sounds to end the fourth period. Ball is in the air when the horn to end the fourth period sounds. The try is successful. Team A's bench, and their head coach, believing that they won the game with a buzzer beating three (they came from fourteen points down late in the game), run onto the court to celebrate. Trail gets a good look at the try and signals only two points, thus, a tied game.

Here's where it gets weird. Official charges Team A with a technical foul for, and not sure here, delay of game, leaving the bench, whatever. The reason for the technical is for another thread (Don't substitutes, and coaches, usually come off the bench at the end of period?).

Here's the question that was asked of me. Officials decide to shoot the free throws for the technical foul as part of the fourth period. A2, hits the first free throw, and the game is over, Team A wins in regulation.

Since the technical foul came after the fourth period horn sounded, and after the ball became dead (after the successful field goal try), shouldn't there have been an overtime period (Mark Padgett is not allowed to answer this question), with the free throws for the technical foul being shot at the beginning of the overtime period?
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 02:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I worked a scrimmage today with an official who worked a freshman game yesterday and he had this situation:
There's a reason he is working freshman games -- and rules knowledge (or lack thereof) is part of that (along with the judgment on calling the T).
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 02:26pm
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2014-15 Case Bookrule 5.6 Comment B:

"If a technical foul occures after the ball has become dead to end a Quater, the next Quater is started by administering the free throws. . . It also applies when the second half is ended, provided the score is tied. If the score is not tied, the free throws are administered unless the outcome of the game will not be affected. If the outcome is not already decided, the free throws are attempted immediately as if the foul had been part of the fourth quarter . . . . "

Because the ball became dead when the shot scored, and the two points tied the game, the free throws should have started the overtime period.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 03:29pm
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Confusion ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnyboy View Post
2014-15 Case Book Rule 5.6 Comment B.
Thanks. That's what I thought. The official was probably confusing his case with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnyboy View Post
If the outcome is not already decided, the free throws are attempted immediately as if the foul had been part of the fourth quarter.
Anybody want to comment on this (below)? I believe that the official was confusing his situation with one where players stream onto the court while there is still some time left on the clock, which might interfere with the other team making their throwin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Official charges Team A with a technical foul for, and not sure here, delay of game, leaving the bench, whatever. The reason for the technical is for another thread (Don't substitutes, and coaches, usually come off the bench at the end of period?).
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 05:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnyboy View Post
2014-15 Case Bookrule 5.6 Comment B:

"If a technical foul occures after the ball has become dead to end a Quater, the next Quater is started by administering the free throws. . . It also applies when the second half is ended, provided the score is tied. If the score is not tied, the free throws are administered unless the outcome of the game will not be affected. If the outcome is not already decided, the free throws are attempted immediately as if the foul had been part of the fourth quarter . . . . "

Because the ball became dead when the shot scored, and the two points tied the game, the free throws should have started the overtime period.
Sounds like you're contradicting yourself.

First you say that if a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end the second half the next quarter is started by administering the free throws. Meaning we go to overtime.

Then you said that if the outcome is not already decided, the free throws are attempted immediately as if the foul had been part of the fourth quarter. This would mean the free throws are attempted now, and making one of them means the game is over without overtime being played.

So which is it?
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 05:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Sounds like you're contradicting yourself.

First you say that if a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end the second half the next quarter is started by administering the free throws. Meaning we go to overtime.

Then you said that if the outcome is not already decided, the free throws are attempted immediately as if the foul had been part of the fourth quarter. This would mean the free throws are attempted now, and making one of them means the game is over without overtime being played.

So which is it?
Read it again. If the score is not tied and the outcome is not decided, you shoot them now as part of the 4th period.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 06:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Sounds like you're contradicting yourself.

First you say that if a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end the second half the next quarter is started by administering the free throws. Meaning we go to overtime.

Then you said that if the outcome is not already decided, the free throws are attempted immediately as if the foul had been part of the fourth quarter. This would mean the free throws are attempted now, and making one of them means the game is over without overtime being played.

So which is it?
It's both. A technical foul that occurs after the period is over will always be shot as part of the next period or overtime. The only exception is if there is no way to know whether there will be overtime without the free throws.

The part about "if the outcome will not be affected" refers to the scenario where the T is called against the losing team, or the lead is larger than the number of free throws that would be attempted.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 06:14pm
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Ok. I thought that if the free throws could decided the outcome of the game, they are shot as part of the fourth quarter. But this quote confused me...
Quote:
If a technical foul occures after the ball has become dead to end a Quater, the next Quater is started by administering the free throws. . . It also applies when the second half is ended, provided the score is tied.
That makes it sound otherwise.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 06:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Ok. I thought that if the free throws could decided the outcome of the game, they are shot as part of the fourth quarter. But this quote confused me...

That makes it sound otherwise.
If the game is tied when the fourth quarter ends, then the free throws are shot to begin overtime.

If the game is NOT tied, then if those technical free throws could alter the outcome of the game, they're shot as part of the fourth quarter.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 09:13pm
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I've always found it an odd quirk of the rules:
*if the game is tied! and I scream at the referee and get a T after the buzzer, I get to play OT; but
*if I'm winning by 1 and get a T after the buzzer, I can lose without Getting to OT.

So far as I know, it is the only scenario in which a team can be at a disadvantage by being ahead.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 09:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
I've always found it an odd quirk of the rules:
*if the game is tied! and I scream at the referee and get a T after the buzzer, I get to play OT; but
*if I'm winning by 1 and get a T after the buzzer, I can lose without Getting to OT.

So far as I know, it is the only scenario in which a team can be at a disadvantage by being ahead.
If anybody is dumb enough to get a T after the buzzer having already won the game, it's hard to blame that on a quirk in the rules.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2014, 11:07pm
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Anybody want to comment on this (below)? I believe that the official was confusing his situation with one where players stream onto the court while there is still some time left on the clock, which might interfere with the other team making their throwin.[/QUOTE]

I think it would have been better not to have call a TF in that situation. It seems to me that a buzzer beater to end the game is a good reason for the bench and coach to show a positive emotional response. If the clock had not expired, diffrent story. But if the shot won the game or tied the game, let the kids enjoy the moment.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 01:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks. That's what I thought. The official was probably confusing his case with this:



Anybody want to comment on this (below)? I believe that the official was confusing his situation with one where players stream onto the court while there is still some time left on the clock, which might interfere with the other team making their throwin.
what's there to comment on? You don't know if they were right or wrong? I know you do not want us guessing what was in your colleague's head?
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 10:17am
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Post Your advice to him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I worked a scrimmage today with an official who worked a freshman game yesterday and he had this situation:

Fourth period game clock is running down. Team A is down by two points and has the ball. A1 shoots from near the three point arc, and releases the try before the horn sounds to end the fourth period. Ball is in the air when the horn to end the fourth period sounds. The try is successful. Team A's bench, and their head coach, believing that they won the game with a buzzer beating three (they came from fourteen points down late in the game), run onto the court to celebrate. Trail gets a good look at the try and signals only two points, thus, a tied game.

Here's where it gets weird. Official charges Team A with a technical foul for, and not sure here, delay of game, leaving the bench, whatever. The reason for the technical is for another thread (Don't substitutes, and coaches, usually come off the bench at the end of period?).

Here's the question that was asked of me. Officials decide to shoot the free throws for the technical foul as part of the fourth period. A2, hits the first free throw, and the game is over, Team A wins in regulation.

Since the technical foul came after the fourth period horn sounded, and after the ball became dead (after the successful field goal try), shouldn't there have been an overtime period (Mark Padgett is not allowed to answer this question), with the free throws for the technical foul being shot at the beginning of the overtime period?
Did you advise the young official that the T was inappropriate here? I think that is a bigger learning point than the administration error of the T. If he doesn't understand that there was no justification for the T based on your description, he won't be moving much past Freshman level.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 11:03am
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One Day At A Time ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RefCT View Post
Did you advise the young official that the T was inappropriate here? I think that is a bigger learning point than the administration error of the T. If he doesn't understand that there was no justification for the T based on your description, he won't be moving much past Freshman level.
I decided not to pile on this veteran subvarsity official. We only discussed whether, or not, the free throws should have been taken during the overtime, rather than during the fourth period. It was my contention that they should have been taken during the overtime, concentrating on the buzzer, and dead ball, scenario.

He had already called our assigner about the technical foul. I don't know what took place during that phone call, but I decided to table that part of the play.
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