Backcourt

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

Where does it say player control is relevant here?

It's relevant to the status of the ball, IMO. If there is no PC, how can the ball maintain BC status?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's relevant to the status of the ball, IMO. If there is no PC, how can the ball maintain BC status?

I'm fleshing this out, and I'm probably going to land on your side before it's all said and done. My only point right now is the rule isn't as clear cut as some seem to be saying it is. We're having to infer a few things here.

1. The rule simply says "during a dribble".
2. The rules define when a dribble starts, when it ends, and when it's interrupted. Nowhere does it say that the time of interruption is excluded from the "during" portion that, to me, without explicit statements to the contrary, would include the time between the beginning and end of the dribble. We can potentially infer this, but it's not stated.

It may well be there intent, but that's only a guess and to claim otherwise is getting ahead of ourselves, IMO.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm fleshing this out, and I'm probably going to land on your side before it's all said and done. My only point right now is the rule isn't as clear cut as some seem to be saying it is. We're having to infer a few things here.

1. The rule simply says "during a dribble".
2. The rules define when a dribble starts, when it ends, and when it's interrupted. Nowhere does it say that the time of interruption is excluded from the "during" portion that, to me, without explicit statements to the contrary, would include the time between the beginning and end of the dribble. We can potentially infer this, but it's not stated.

It may well be there intent, but that's only a guess and to claim otherwise is getting ahead of ourselves, IMO.

Well said...that is pretty much my stance as well.

[BryanV21]

The rule does not take the length of time of the interruption into account, so it should be deemed an interrupted dribble. So we're talking about a dribbler, meaning the three points rule should still be in effect.

Therefore, it is not a violation.

The intent of player control being lost during an interrupted dribble is for fouls, and shouldn't be applied here. At least that's how it was during another rule discussion, where I tried to apply one definition to a ruling.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The rule does not take the length of time of the interruption into account, so it should be deemed an interrupted dribble. So we're talking about a dribbler, meaning the three points rule should still be in effect.

Therefore, it is not a violation.

The intent of player control being lost during an interrupted dribble is for fouls, and shouldn't be applied here. At least that's how it was during another rule discussion, where I tried to apply one definition to a ruling.

My final thoughts on it...hopefully....


Ball location rule: During a DRIBBLE from BC To FC...three point contact etc. required...

Definition of dribble in rule 4.
1. Player in control
2. Batting, intentionally pushing ball to floor...

Must have both to meet THE definition of dribble.

Interrupted dribble definition-- ball deflects off leg or gets away. No player control. (Player isn't intentionally batting or pushing ball.)

Two very different things-nearly opposite when you look at each definition. An interrupted dribble, by definition (no player control and ball getting away) cannot be A dribble because the player is not in control and batting the ball intentionally. It is excluded from the definition of dribble. a Dribble, by its definition, (player in control intentionally batting ball) cannot be an interrupted dribble.

The ball location rule says" during a dribble." Drafters used the term and made the definition above. . They also drafted interrupted dribble definition. If they wanted that included in the ball location stuff they could have said "during a dribble or interrupted dribble"....three points apply. They didn't so only when the dribble definition requirements are met do 3 points apply. Must be player control and intentional batting. Thx

[BryanV21]

I don't have the rulebook with me, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem that the dribble has ended. That's my biggest hangup.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I don't have the rulebook with me, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem that the dribble has ended. That's my biggest hangup.

Yeah, I know that's where it is at. And I understand it completely. We are used to things beginning and ending. And all in between is part of whatever we are talking about. I think that normal way of thinking is changed in this case by the specific definitions they are giving us. It is more what IS or ISNT a dribble as opposed to beginning and end.

I think they are avoiding saying the dribble ends when the ball gets away because they want the player to be able to resume his dribble. He couldn't do it if they said the dribble ended when it got away. thx

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

... but it doesn't seem that the dribble has ended.

NFHS 4-15-4: The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both
hands.
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or
both hands.
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to
lose control.
e. The ball becomes dead.

[just another ref]

Look at 4-15-6.

During an interrupted dribble:

No closely guarded count.

No player control foul.

No time-out granted.

No out of bounds violation on the player.


In short, nothing associated with a dribble is in effect during an interrupted dribble and I am quite comfortable that this includes the ball maintaining backcourt status.

I think it is also important to note that time is not a factor here. There is no minimum time involved in an interrupted dribble. The key is loss of control.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Look at 4-15-6.

During an interrupted dribble:

No closely guarded count.

No player control foul.

No time-out granted.

No out of bounds violation on the player.


In short, nothing associated with a dribble is in effect during an interrupted dribble and I am quite comfortable that this includes the ball maintaining backcourt status.

I think it is also important to note that time is not a factor here. There is no minimum time involved in an interrupted dribble. The key is loss of control.

I'm away on vacation, so like I said... I can't check the book. But that clears it up for me. So we're thinking we have a violation?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I'm away on vacation, so like I said... I can't check the book. But that clears it up for me. So we're thinking we have a violation?

yes