The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 04, 2014, 10:57pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by camron rust View Post
where does it say that?
4-4-2 & 4-4-3
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 02:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
4-4-2 & 4-4-3
That doesn't back up your claim any more than 12-5-2 once 4-4-6 is considered.

And I do agree with the violation in principle, but those rules just don't support your above statement.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 03:50am
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
That doesn't back up your claim any more than 12-5-2 once 4-4-6 is considered.

The whole point is that 4-4-6 is not to be considered. If there is an interrupted dribble (and there is here, it's a given in the OP) then, by definition there is no player control. If there is no player control, then there is no dribble. If there is no player control and no dribble then 4-4-2 /4-4-3 are the only rules which could define the location of the ball.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove

Last edited by just another ref; Wed Nov 05, 2014 at 04:12am.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 10:07am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The whole point is that 4-4-6 is not to be considered. If there is an interrupted dribble (and there is here, it's a given in the OP) then, by definition there is no player control. If there is no player control, then there is no dribble. If there is no player control and no dribble then 4-4-2 /4-4-3 are the only rules which could define the location of the ball.
*I am struggling with this one, I'm trying to imagine this occuring and it would be helpful to have video of this event. Notwithstanding such evidence I'd have to ask myself at the instant that the event occured--"was there player control or not?" Based on the descriptive evidence provided in the post, it appeared that there was an interrupted dribble, thus no player control.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 12:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The whole point is that 4-4-6 is not to be considered. If there is an interrupted dribble (and there is here, it's a given in the OP) then, by definition there is no player control. If there is no player control, then there is no dribble. If there is no player control and no dribble then 4-4-2 /4-4-3 are the only rules which could define the location of the ball.
Define "during" then. During could be interpreted to apply to the time between when something begins and when it ends. The dribble has started but not ended. It is only interrupted. Thus, it could be during.

Again, I don't think that is really the right direction, but it isn't so clear as you like to say.

So, lets just call it a blarge.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 12:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 546
The OP states that the "A1 picks up the ball while still having backcourt status", after the ball touched in the front court during an interupted dribble.

For those who are arguing that this is a violation, would the call/opinion change if instead of picking up the ball, "A1 simply resumes his dribble" while still having at least a foot in the backcourt?
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 01:39pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
The OP states that the "A1 picks up the ball while still having backcourt status", after the ball touched in the front court during an interupted dribble.

For those who are arguing that this is a violation, would the call/opinion change if instead of picking up the ball, "A1 simply resumes his dribble" while still having at least a foot in the backcourt?

No, any touch would still give the ball backcourt status.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 01:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
The OP states that the "A1 picks up the ball while still having backcourt status", after the ball touched in the front court during an interupted dribble.

For those who are arguing that this is a violation, would the call/opinion change if instead of picking up the ball, "A1 simply resumes his dribble" while still having at least a foot in the backcourt?
No,

Once you declare that the dribble is interrupted there is no longer player control. When the ball first lands in the front court it gains front court status. When the player "resumes" the dribble with a foot in the backcourt he has changed the status/location of the ball. It is now in the backcourt. violation still. thx
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 02:29pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
No,

Once you declare that the dribble is interrupted there is no longer player control. When the ball first lands in the front court it gains front court status. When the player "resumes" the dribble with a foot in the backcourt he has changed the status/location of the ball. It is now in the backcourt. violation still. thx
Where does it say player control is relevant here?
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 02:39pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Where does it say player control is relevant here?
The relevant part is that when player control is lost the ball touching the frontcourt gives it frontcourt status. Pass, interrupted dribble, fumble, it doesn't matter. Ball in frontcourt, still in team control, now touched by player in backcourt is a violation.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 04:04pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Where does it say player control is relevant here?
It's relevant to the status of the ball, IMO. If there is no PC, how can the ball maintain BC status?
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 04:48pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
It's relevant to the status of the ball, IMO. If there is no PC, how can the ball maintain BC status?
I'm fleshing this out, and I'm probably going to land on your side before it's all said and done. My only point right now is the rule isn't as clear cut as some seem to be saying it is. We're having to infer a few things here.

1. The rule simply says "during a dribble".
2. The rules define when a dribble starts, when it ends, and when it's interrupted. Nowhere does it say that the time of interruption is excluded from the "during" portion that, to me, without explicit statements to the contrary, would include the time between the beginning and end of the dribble. We can potentially infer this, but it's not stated.

It may well be there intent, but that's only a guess and to claim otherwise is getting ahead of ourselves, IMO.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 06:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I'm fleshing this out, and I'm probably going to land on your side before it's all said and done. My only point right now is the rule isn't as clear cut as some seem to be saying it is. We're having to infer a few things here.

1. The rule simply says "during a dribble".
2. The rules define when a dribble starts, when it ends, and when it's interrupted. Nowhere does it say that the time of interruption is excluded from the "during" portion that, to me, without explicit statements to the contrary, would include the time between the beginning and end of the dribble. We can potentially infer this, but it's not stated.

It may well be there intent, but that's only a guess and to claim otherwise is getting ahead of ourselves, IMO.
Well said...that is pretty much my stance as well.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 08:57pm
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
The rule does not take the length of time of the interruption into account, so it should be deemed an interrupted dribble. So we're talking about a dribbler, meaning the three points rule should still be in effect.

Therefore, it is not a violation.

The intent of player control being lost during an interrupted dribble is for fouls, and shouldn't be applied here. At least that's how it was during another rule discussion, where I tried to apply one definition to a ruling.

Last edited by BryanV21; Wed Nov 05, 2014 at 09:17pm.
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 05, 2014, 10:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
The rule does not take the length of time of the interruption into account, so it should be deemed an interrupted dribble. So we're talking about a dribbler, meaning the three points rule should still be in effect.

Therefore, it is not a violation.

The intent of player control being lost during an interrupted dribble is for fouls, and shouldn't be applied here. At least that's how it was during another rule discussion, where I tried to apply one definition to a ruling.
My final thoughts on it...hopefully....


Ball location rule: During a DRIBBLE from BC To FC...three point contact etc. required...

Definition of dribble in rule 4.
1. Player in control
2. Batting, intentionally pushing ball to floor...

Must have both to meet THE definition of dribble.

Interrupted dribble definition-- ball deflects off leg or gets away. No player control. (Player isn't intentionally batting or pushing ball.)

Two very different things-nearly opposite when you look at each definition. An interrupted dribble, by definition (no player control and ball getting away) cannot be A dribble because the player is not in control and batting the ball intentionally. It is excluded from the definition of dribble. a Dribble, by its definition, (player in control intentionally batting ball) cannot be an interrupted dribble.

The ball location rule says" during a dribble." Drafters used the term and made the definition above. . They also drafted interrupted dribble definition. If they wanted that included in the ball location stuff they could have said "during a dribble or interrupted dribble"....three points apply. They didn't so only when the dribble definition requirements are met do 3 points apply. Must be player control and intentional batting. Thx
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Backcourt or not? assignmentmaker Basketball 38 Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:05pm
Backcourt or not jack48 Basketball 5 Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:59am
backcourt? chas Basketball 1 Mon Nov 07, 2005 08:32pm
Backcourt? johnnyrao Basketball 7 Sat Nov 05, 2005 01:39am
backcourt missinglink Basketball 13 Tue Dec 30, 2003 05:29pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:09pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1