backcourt

[missinglink]

The recently completed Ucla-Michigan game on TV had what looked like a bad call by both Trail and Center with ~1.5 min to go in a close game. Unless I am OTL and the NCAA rules differ from NFHS. Ball was still in backcourt having been dribbled in bc but UCLA1 had both feet in front court, returned to backcourt to avoid the defense then began to advance the ball into frontcourt on dribble when both T and C signalled back court violation. Did anyone else see the play and 1) am I wrong in what I saw or 2) are the rules different in NCAA?

And can we please stop the vindictive nature of what's going on in the Great Alaska Do Over thread (What would you do thread)?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by missinglink
The recently completed Ucla-Michigan game on TV had what looked like a bad call by both Trail and Center with ~1.5 min to go in a close game.

And can we please stop the vindictive nature of what's going on in the Great Alaska Do Over thread (What would you do thread)?

Hmmmm. Two interesting statements. Stop being vindictive. Instead, let's talk about the bad call that the officials made.

I think that I'll pass on this particular discussion.

[zebra44]

That's a little harsh JR. He is questioning possible rules differences, and the possible missed call. BAD was your term.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by zebra44
That's a little harsh JR. He is questioning possible rules differences, and the possible missed call. BAD was your term.

I think that you need to go back and re-read his first sentence. It was his term, not mine.

Btw, if two experienced D1 officials had the same call, what are the odds that it was a bad call?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 27th, 2003 at 08:38 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by zebra44
That's a little harsh JR. He is questioning possible rules differences, and the possible missed call. BAD was your term.

Perhaps I can help. What don't you understand about the first statement in the quote below?

Originally posted by missinglink
The recently completed Ucla-Michigan game on TV had what looked like a bad call by both Trail and Center with ~1.5 min to go in a close game. Unless I am OTL and the NCAA rules differ from NFHS. Ball was still in backcourt having been dribbled in bc but UCLA1 had both feet in front court, returned to backcourt to avoid the defense then began to advance the ball into frontcourt on dribble when both T and C signalled back court violation. Did anyone else see the play and 1) am I wrong in what I saw or 2) are the rules different in NCAA?

I didn't see the call, so it's difficult for me to make a judgment on it. To my knowledge, both NCAA and NFHS have the same rule on this play. But I would have to agree with JR. It seems unlikely that two D1 officials would miss such a call.

And can we please stop the vindictive nature of what's going on in the Great Alaska Do Over thread (What would you do thread)?

First, if I haven't said it already, Welcome to the board! As for the post, it was closed a couple of days ago. For some reason it was re-opened. It shouldn't have been. If it offends you, I would suggest that you just ignore it.

[NorthSide]

Missing Link - I, too, watched the game on CBS today featuring UCLA/Michigan. If I'm not mistaken, the play took place with approximately 52 seconds remaining (Michigan leading 67-63) in the second half. Bruin Forward Trevor Arizia committed the "over and back" violation. I remember the play you outlined for three reasons:

1. When the play occurred, it immediately looked odd. The Ann Arbor crowd and Michigan bench went crazy when the Bruin point guard went into the frontcourt and returned to the backcourt. Since it happened so quickly, I was hoping for a replay and my wish was granted. Although CBS replayed it only once, it definitively showed both feet of the Bruin PG in the frontcourt while the ball remained in the backcourt. It took place in a secondary transition break by UCLA, so the Trail was immediately in front of the Michigan bench (this took place, again, toward the end of the second half). The Center official popped his whistle and signaled "over and back" immediately with the Trail coming in afterwards.

2. UCLA Head Coach Ben Howland was livid at the call having to be restrained by his staff. A timeout was called after the violation and CBS, going into the commercial, had the camera pointed directly at Howland as he fired several expletives (oh, you could tell what he said!) at the official.

3. The play solidified how basketball officials are forced to make judgement calls at the "drop of a hat" without the benefit of television plays. No instant replays (well, sometimes..), no team challenges, and no "upon further reviews." Although, I feel, they missed the call, it has no bearing on their ability as Division I basketball officials. I should note it all seemed to work out for, during the ensuing play, Michigan PG Daniel Horton committed a turnover returning the ball to UCLA.

[zebra44]

Oops, my BAD.The first paragraph was out of my primary area. D1 officials are still human. Experienced surgeons still make mistakes, too.

[Camron Rust]

The correct call was made.

There were two UCLA players involved in the play. Not sure of the numbers but here was the situation:

A1 bringing the ball up the court. A2 running just ahead of A1. A1 passes the ball to A2 just as A2 crosses the line and starts coming back to the ball. A2 is only touching the frontcourt (both feet even) when he catches the ball while his body (to complete the mental picture) was leaning towards and over the backcourt. A2 immediately dribbles the ball on the backcourt side of the line. What happens next is irrelevant but for completeness, A2, IIRC, then steped into the backcourt while continuing to dribble.

This is a backcourt violation.

1. Team A had team control
2. The ball gained FC status when A2 initially touched it (on the catch).
3. A2 was the last to touch the ball before the ball returned to the backcourt (on the dribble).
4. A2 was the first to touch the ball after it went to the backcourt (the next bounce of the dribble).

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by zebra44
Oops, D1 officials are still human. Experienced surgeons still make mistakes, too.

Well, as Camron Rust points out, D1 officials are not human

[missinglink]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
The correct call was made.

There were two UCLA players involved in the play. Not sure of the numbers but here was the situation:

A1 bringing the ball up the court. A2 running just ahead of A1. A1 passes the ball to A2 just as A2 crosses the line and starts coming back to the ball. A2 is only touching the frontcourt (both feet even) when he catches the ball while his body (to complete the mental picture) was leaning towards and over the backcourt. A2 immediately dribbles the ball on the backcourt side of the line. What happens next is irrelevant but for completeness, A2, IIRC, then steped into the backcourt while continuing to dribble.

This is a backcourt violation.

1. Team A had team control
2. The ball gained FC status when A2 initially touched it (on the catch).
3. A2 was the last to touch the ball before the ball returned to the backcourt (on the dribble).
4. A2 was the first to touch the ball after it went to the backcourt (the next bounce of the dribble).

CR, your observation of the play makes sense and I didn't observe A1's part in this scene. Given this sequence, Center should have made his backcourt violation call immediately upon A2's catch and first dribble. What sucked me in was that it appeared that he made his call coincident with A2 was returning all the way into backcourt on the next dribble. Another situation that will make me better. Thanks.

[Bart Tyson]

[i]


CR, your observation of the play makes sense and I didn't observe A1's part in this scene. Given this sequence, Center should have made his backcourt violation call immediately upon A2's catch and first dribble. What sucked me in was that it appeared that he made his call coincident with A2 was returning all the way into backcourt on the next dribble. Another situation that will make me better. Thanks. [/B]

Could it be the official had a slow whistle? See the play, process the play to make sure you are correct, player steps back, whistle, everyone thinks the call is stepping back. "C" has to first give the "T" opportunity to make the call.
I'm just asking because I did not see the play.

[missinglink]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

Could it be the official had a slow whistle? See the play, process the play to make sure you are correct, player steps back, whistle, everyone thinks the call is stepping back. "C" has to first give the "T" opportunity to make the call.
I'm just asking because I did not see the play. [/B]

could have been, probably was; as a TV viewer I was obviously too quick to judge (seeing as I missed the setup play mentioned above).

[DownTownTonyBrown]

sounds like this was called correctly given the full scenario set-up.

Slow whistle is another valid point... I missed a backcourt violation the other day but was slow enough that no one even made a peep...

A1 throw-in from near mid court. A2 jumps from front court catches ball ... will land completely in back court... I'm thinking this is going to be okay... A2 now throws (still in the air) to A3 who is in the back court...

I'm thinking whoa! Wait a minute! was that a backcourt violation?

Ball is now in frontcourt. Too slow/too late to whistle now.

No one even squeeled for backcout violation. I have a feeling that if I had called it there would have been some squeeling.

I am correct that this was a violation, aren't I?

A2 has frontcourt status when he makes the catch and per NFHS rule 9-9-3 is allowed to land in backcourt.

However, with pass to A3, ball now has went from FC to BC and does not meet the particulars of rule 9-9-3.

By the time I recognized the violation and could have blown my whistle I was too late and would have had all kinds of coaches and fans that would have been ready to argue. I feel my lack of confidence and preparation for this particular situation would have caused this controversy. Next time I will be ready and will have the crackers out of my whistle.

Surely someone has a comment about this particular BC play.

[BktBallRef]

Yes, it was a BC violation.