Backcourt

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

Player control isn't relevant here.

I have to admit, the OP is a question I've asked myself before too.
During a dribble from BC to FC, all three points must gain FC status before a BC call can be considered. Does "during a dribble" include the time while the dribble was interrupted? I'd have to say yes, as nothing has "ended" that dribble yet. So, I've got no-call.

Now, if a teammate or opponent touches it, the dribble has ended and that could affect the ruling.

So, to exaggerate the situation: Your count has reached 6, then interrupted dribble rolls in the front court parallel to the division line for 5 seconds. Are you calling a 10 second backcourt violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So, to exaggerate the situation: Your count has reached 6, then interrupted dribble rolls in the front court parallel to the division line for 5 seconds. Are you calling a 10 second backcourt violation?

Interesting point. I think that call would be easier to justify for me with the rules, but I'm not married to that answer.

[Camron Rust]

Interesting question.

With the rules as written, I think I could probably argue both sides....

1. That it is still during a dribble so the ball remains in the BC and, as a result, the dribbler can still pick up the ball and the 10 count continues.

or

2. That "during" a dribble is referring to it being actively dribbled, not during an the interruption. The interruption is more of a suspension of the dribble, not having ended but not "during" it either.

I think that what it boils down to is that these rules were never written with this set of events in mind and anything we decide is really an opinion of interpretation rather than anything concrete.

Now, what would I do? Hmmm. I'm not sure. Maybe I'll just call a travel.

[just another ref]

The OP is a violation. When we say an interrupted dribble has not ended, the only significance is that it may be resumed by the dribbler without a violation. A ball which is not in player control has frontcourt status when it touches the frontcourt. If the dribbler catches the ball or resumes the dribble while he is touching the backcourt, violation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The OP is a violation. When we say an interrupted dribble has not ended, the only significance is that it may be resumed by the dribbler without a violation. A ball which is not in player control has frontcourt status when it touches the frontcourt. If the dribbler catches the ball or resumes the dribble while he is touching the backcourt, violation.

Do you have rule references for the parts in red?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Do you have rule references for the parts in red?

4-15-5: There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

Therefore, where is the ball?


4-4-2: A ball which is in contact with the court is in frontcourt if the ball is not touching the backcourt.

4-12-2c: A team is in control during an interrupted dribble.

Ball in team control was caused to go into frontcourt and now is returned to backcourt.

Violation. 9-9-2

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-15-5: There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

Therefore, where is the ball?


4-4-2: A ball which is in contact with the court is in frontcourt if the ball is not touching the backcourt.

4-12-2c: A team is in control during an interrupted dribble.

Ball in team control was caused to go into frontcourt and now is returned to backcourt.

Violation. 9-9-2

Yet the point that remains unanswered is that the dribble began, the dribble hasn't ended, thus is it actually still "during" the dribble making the 3 points rule relevant.

I think that the spirit of the 3 points rule would make it not applicable. It is designed to allow a dribbler to cleanly cross the line without worrying about exactly where the line is they cross while actively dribbling the ball. I do not believe it is meant to apply to a player who is not currently dribbling.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-15-5: There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

Therefore, where is the ball?


4-4-2: A ball which is in contact with the court is in frontcourt if the ball is not touching the backcourt.

4-12-2c: A team is in control during an interrupted dribble.

Ball in team control was caused to go into frontcourt and now is returned to backcourt.

Violation. 9-9-2

I'm looking at a rule book from a couple years back, but both violations 9-9-1 and 9-9-2 note "player and team control". This isn't the case in the OP due to the interupted dribble.

9-9-2: "while in player and team control in the backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt ..."

So I still do not think this violation applies.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-15-5: There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

Therefore, where is the ball?


4-4-2: A ball which is in contact with the court is in frontcourt if the ball is not touching the backcourt.

4-12-2c: A team is in control during an interrupted dribble.

Ball in team control was caused to go into frontcourt and now is returned to backcourt.

Violation. 9-9-2

Also 4-15-1
A dribble IS-- ball movement caused by a PLAYER IN CONTROL who bats (intentionally strikes ball)…

the ball location rule 4-4-6 says "during a DRIBBLE" from front BC to FC...

Therefore, for the ball and two feet stuff to apply a player must be must be in control and intentionally batting etc. as noted above there is no player control during interrupted dribble. also, interrupted dribble definition says ball deflects off leg or slips away...

interrupted (to stop) dribble is the nearly exact opposite of a dribble. the phrase contains the word DRIBBLE which leads to the confusion but it is not a dribble. clear as mud I'm sure...

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So, to exaggerate the situation: Your count has reached 6, then interrupted dribble rolls in the front court parallel to the division line for 5 seconds. Are you calling a 10 second backcourt violation?

If the ball rolls to the front court and sits for more than a second (and the dribbler isn't chasing it), then I have to reconsider whether this is an interupted dribble or a bad pass. I think part of the judgement as to whether or not it is an interupted dribble is that the dribbler is chasing after it to resume the dribble.

[Rob1968]

Am I understanding the train of thought in this discussion? . . .
that an interrupted dribble exists if the dribbler loses control of the ball - dribbling- and then after the ball gets away from the dribbler, it is again controlled by dribbling . . .
but, if the dribbler loses control of the ball, and then picks up the ball, thus regaining player control, the time between losing the dribble and picking up the ball, can't be considered an interrupted dribble, but rather must be called a fumble.