Plays: Elephant vs. Gnat

[Raymond]

Worked a men's college scrimmage the other day.

Half court set offense.

I'm Lead. A1 dribbles from C's primary to Trail's primary. A1 clearly double dribbles while in Trail's primary, as I see it while looking through players in my primary. No whistle from Trail, and I leave it alone.

After our crew comes off the court, the head official (who is just observing) for the scrimmage asks if we missed a double dribble during our run. Several sideline officials and I quickly chime in with a "yes!!!". So apparently it was obvious to everyone in the gym except the Trail, who is completely clueless to what play we are talking about, even after we tell him it happened right in front of him.

My questions are--as the Center giving up the play to the Trail, would you come and get that violation? Would you consider coming to get it from the Lead since it was so obvious?

[Toren]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Worked a men's college scrimmage the other day.

Half court set offense.

I'm Lead. A1 dribbles from C's primary to Trail's primary. A1 clearly double dribbles while in Trail's primary, as I see it while looking through players in my primary. No whistle from Trail, and I leave it alone.

After our crew comes off the court, the head official (who is just observing) for the scrimmage asks if we missed a double dribble during our run. Several sideline officials and I quickly chime in with a "yes!!!". So apparently it was obvious to everyone in the gym except the Trail, who is completely clueless to what play we are talking about, even after we tell him it happened right in front of him.

My questions are--as the Center giving up the play to the Trail, would you come and get that violation? Would you consider coming to get it from the Lead since it was so obvious?

Only if it's as obvious as you state. If "everyone in the gym" saw it, except my partner, then I'm getting it.

I would have gotten it as the L or the C.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Worked a men's college scrimmage the other day.

Half court set offense.

I'm Lead. A1 dribbles from C's primary to Trail's primary. A1 clearly double dribbles while in Trail's primary, as I see it while looking through players in my primary. No whistle from Trail, and I leave it alone.

After our crew comes off the court, the head official (who is just observing) for the scrimmage asks if we missed a double dribble during our run. Several sideline officials and I quickly chime in with a "yes!!!". So apparently it was obvious to everyone in the gym except the Trail, who is completely clueless to what play we are talking about, even after we tell him it happened right in front of him.

My questions are--as the Center giving up the play to the Trail, would you come and get that violation? Would you consider coming to get it from the Lead since it was so obvious?

As the L, probably not. Most likely I have stuff to keep me occupied rather than looking at a vioilation 20+ feet away. As the C, maybe but it would depend on whether there was a competitive match-up in my PCA. He may just have to die with that one.

[bob jenkins]

(I posted this in the thread where the OP was originally -- and I misread it as you being C on the play. Don't know why it didn't get moved)

I'm not up on the NCAAM's mechanics, but had T accepted the play? If so, leave it alone. If not, then C is still on ball and should have the call, even if the dribbler had crossed some imaginary line.

In HS, the C even stays with the count, so if the DD was just as the first dribble was ending, then C can get it. (If the dribbler held the ball for any length of time, then started a new dribble, it's probable that T should have been on it)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(I posted this in the thread where the OP was originally -- and I misread it as you being C on the play. Don't know why it didn't get moved)

I'm not up on the NCAAM's mechanics, but had T accepted the play? If so, leave it alone. If not, then C is still on ball and should have the call, even if the dribbler had crossed some imaginary line.

In HS, the C even stays with the count, so if the DD was just as the first dribble was ending, then C can get it. (If the dribbler held the ball for any length of time, then started a new dribble, it's probable that T should have been on it)

He didn't. It was one of those dribble, hold for a second, then dribble again.

The Trail got joked on by those watching because he had called 3 off ball fouls in the first couple minutes of play, so everyone said he was too busy looking for illegal screens to pay attention to the ball handler.

Usually we realize when we miss something, but he genuinely had no idea that something had happened right in front of him.

[Kansas Ref]

Many officiating crews "struggle" with the issue of: "leave the play alone" or "whistle the foul/violation" when it occurs not just out of but even tangential to our PCA's.

What I normally do is to "leave it alone" if I am more than 20 feet removed from the spot of the incident, at the risk of either missing the call or dis-engaging my ref partners. I have seen crews get totally lambasted by coaches when a glaring violation is missed by a ref in the PCA. Then again I have heard coaches remark "missed that one and play through it". to their chagrined players.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

Many officiating crews "struggle" with the issue of: "leave the play alone" or "whistle the foul/violation" when it occurs not just out of but even tangential to our PCA's.

What I normally do is to "leave it alone" if I am more than 20 feet removed from the spot of the incident, at the risk of either missing the call or dis-engaging my ref partners. I have seen crews get totally lambasted by coaches when a glaring violation is missed by a ref in the PCA. Then again I have heard coaches remark "missed that one and play through it". to their chagrined players.

I left it alone because, as the L, I would have had no credibility making that call. I can't speak for the C b/c I have no idea what other matchups he had and I do not believe A1 was closely guarded at any time for him to stay on the play as it left him. But in our conversation of the play, the C did say he saw it. I had closed down in preparation of rotating, then I saw A1 come into my peripheral has he brought the ball strong side. I then took a couple steps back from close down as I mirrored the ball. So I know the violation definitely occurred fully in the Trail's primary

But I wonder, if there were 10-15 seconds left in a tied ballgame, would it change our thinking on this. Would we want to have to watch film of an obvious violation followed by a game-winning shot, or would we then consider this violation an elephant based on time & score?

[Toren]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I left it alone because, as the L, I would have had no credibility making that call. I can't speak for the C b/c I have no idea what other matchups he had and I do not believe A1 was closely guarded at any time for him to stay on the play as it left him. But in our conversation of the play, the C did say he saw it. I had closed down in preparation of rotating, then I saw A1 come into my peripheral has he brought the ball strong side. I then took a couple steps back from close down as I mirrored the ball. So I know the violation definitely occurred fully in the Trail's primary

But I wonder, if there were 10-15 seconds left in a tied ballgame, would it change our thinking on this. Would we want to have to watch film of an obvious violation followed by a game-winning shot, or would we then consider this violation an elephant based on time & score?

If everyone in the gym saw it and one of the crew didn't see it, then we need to get it. I don't think you'd have any credibility issues because everyone knows it's the right call.

You might have to explain why you actually saw it but you just explained it to us

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I left it alone because, as the L, I would have had no credibility making that call. I can't speak for the C b/c I have no idea what other matchups he had and I do not believe A1 was closely guarded at any time for him to stay on the play as it left him. But in our conversation of the play, the C did say he saw it. I had closed down in preparation of rotating, then I saw A1 come into my peripheral has he brought the ball strong side. I then took a couple steps back from close down as I mirrored the ball. So I know the violation definitely occurred fully in the Trail's primary

But I wonder, if there were 10-15 seconds left in a tied ballgame, would it change our thinking on this. Would we want to have to watch film of an obvious violation followed by a game-winning shot, or would we then consider this violation an elephant based on time & score?

If I see an obvious violation/foul out of my PCA or even secondary PCA I am going to get it. Assuming of course that I have seen the play start, develop, and finish, and that I am 100% positive. If I have any doubt, even 1%, I am leaving it alone. I am not worried about my credibility with coaches or players either way. I am worried about the tape showing my assignor the call was right if I do go out of my area. Seeing the entire play and being 100% confident outside of my area only happens a few times the entire season.

The time/score has no bearing on whether or not I make the call. As long as my two criteria, see whole play and 100% certain, are met, I will make the call regardless of time and score.