Throw In - Ball at disposal of a player

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I can find no rule basis for ever starting a throw-in and throw-in count before the thrower gets out of bounds except when the thrower delays taking the ball out of bounds.

Agree. Nice citations.

[Rich1]

By rule, after a made basket the throw in begins when two things happen - the ball is available to the player and the ref starts the count. There is no mention in the rules about allowing the player to step out of bounds first. This is different than other throw ins because we handle the ball.

Now, in practice, I give a player time to step out if they grab the ball and are not delay in moving out of bounds. I start the count if they do not secure the ball and head that way with purpose.

Using some of the logic cited earlier, then it could be argued that we shouldn't place the ball on the floor and begin a count during the delay of game procedure because if the player isn't out of bounds then we can't start the throw in. Yes, its an absurd stretch, but serves to illustrate that throw ins occur under different circumstances and are officiated that way. (And yes I know the "ROP" procedure is rule, I'm just making a point)

The answer to the question in the OP is you start the count when in your judgement you feel the team has access to the ball and has had time to pick it up and step out of bounds. You do not need to wait until they actually do so.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich1

By rule, after a made basket the throw in begins when two things happen - the ball is available to the player and the ref starts the count. There is no mention in the rules about allowing the player to step out of bounds first. This is different than other throw ins because we handle the ball.

That is not the rule. All that rule is saying is that when the official, due to delay by the team, decides to start the throwin count, the throwin has effectively begun.

The question you have to ask about this rules is "Available for what"? What if the ball bounces funny as it comes out of the next and goes to midcourt and is picked up by a player (or into the 12th row)? Is it available then? Of course not. If not at 40' from the endline, what about 30'? 20'? How close is close enough? The only line you have is the endline.

See this rule:

Rule 4-42 Art. 2...A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

So, by definition, it must be OOB for a throwin to occur.

The phrase about the official begging the count as being the start of the throwin is ONLY for situations where the player is delaying and could have been OOB. It i is not telling us to start the count as soon as a player catches it.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The phrase about the official begging the count as being the start of the throwin is ONLY for situations where the player is delaying and could have been OOB. It i is not telling us to start the count as soon as a player catches it.

Agreed. And this is how I call it. If the ball bounces far away it is not at their disposal so you should not start a count. But in this situation, the throw in does not begin until they have the ball at their disposal, and I start counting. It does not matter where they re standing when these two things occur. In fact, if they step out with the ball but for somevreason I don't start counting then technically the throw in hasn't started (its splitting hairs but if they haven't released the ball you could award the timeout).

I stand by my original statement for throw ins after a made basket. Its a different situation than other throw ins.

[JetMetFan]

Here are the relevant NFHS rules as I see it...

7-6-2 The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

4-4-7d A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

4-42-3 The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

4-42-2 A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

Given the language of the first three, 4-42-2 should probably read "A throw-in is a method of making the ball live after it has been dead."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Here are the relevant NFHS rules as I see it...

7-6-2 The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

4-4-7d A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

4-42-3 The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

4-42-2 A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

Given the language of the first three, 4-42-2 should probably read "A throw-in is a method of making the ball live after it has been dead."

Why? Can it be from anywhere other than OOB?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Here are the relevant NFHS rules as I see it...

7-6-2 The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

4-4-7d A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

4-42-3 The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

4-42-2 A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

Given the language of the first three, 4-42-2 should probably read "A throw-in is a method of making the ball live after it has been dead."

Why? Can it be from anywhere other than OOB?

It would be more accurate to reword 4-4-7 to more clearly define disposal.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? Can it be from anywhere other than OOB?

It would be more accurate to reword 4-4-7 to more clearly define disposal.

If...

*the throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player on the team entitled to it, and...
*disposal begins when the ball is available to a player and the official begins their count

and...if a player is delaying and the official begins his/her count before the player steps OOB, the throw-in, by rule, has begun.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Rich1

By rule, after a made basket the throw in begins when two things happen - the ball is available to the player and the ref starts the count. There is no mention in the rules about allowing the player to step out of bounds first. This is different than other throw ins because we handle the ball.

Now, in practice, I give a player time to step out if they grab the ball and are not delay in moving out of bounds. I start the count if they do not secure the ball and head that way with purpose.

Using some of the logic cited earlier, then it could be argued that we shouldn't place the ball on the floor and begin a count during the delay of game procedure because if the player isn't out of bounds then we can't start the throw in. Yes, its an absurd stretch, but serves to illustrate that throw ins occur under different circumstances and are officiated that way. (And yes I know the "ROP" procedure is rule, I'm just making a point)

The answer to the question in the OP is you start the count when in your judgement you feel the team has access to the ball and has had time to pick it up and step out of bounds. You do not need to wait until they actually do so.

No it isn't. There is no mention in the rules that we wait for a player to step out of bounds even when handing or bouncing the ball to the thrower either, for that matter. We wait to start the throw-in and throw-in count in all non-delayed throw-in situations until the thrower is out of bounds because that is the way a throw-in is defined in 4-42-2. If it is acceptable to say the ball is at "disposal" and start the throw-in and count when a player immediately catches the ball in bounds after a made basket (even though not delaying) then it should also be acceptable following a time out to bounce the ball to the thrower as he/she is coming across the court and then start the count as soon as he/she possesses the ball since there is no rule that says we must wait until the thrower is out of bounds.