High School Fight (Video)

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by APG

Talk about coverage...should the trail have been able to pick up the players after the pass? Should the C have been able to catch the players squaring off after the turnover? How would you rule if you caught the action early...or midway through? Anything else to discuss in the play above?

I wouldn't expect the T to pick this up, and even if he did, he would be too far away to jump in and stop things from excalating. The shove by green happened right in front of the C. If the C was looking elsewhere up to that point, a player getting shoved right in front of him should have been enough to get his attention. Immediatly following the shove, there is enough for me to jump in with a double T for the stare down/taunting.

Seeing the whole play on video, I have a double technical foul for the stare down/shove to the chest. Once the two start bobing and weaving that close together, it's a fighting situation and a flagrant double technical.

Other things to consider, green had at least 5 players leave the bench. The officials seem to be content to usher them back to the bench without any penalty. Maybe they do penalize, but it didn't look like they had any interest in recording the numbers of the players. If I'm the furthest away official, I'm noting numbers and having the scorer jot them down for me.

Originally Posted by APG

Talk about coverage...should the trail have been able to pick up the players after the pass?

Maybe. I'm not faulting him for not looking there but when all the players are on that side of the court, I think he could help the C out.

Originally Posted by APG

Should the C have been able to catch the players squaring off after the turnover?

Almost certainly but I can understand why the C followed the ball. It is in his area after all, even if the competitive matchup closer to him is more important. It's tough to know where to look when and knowing when you can let your partners officiate the on-ball play while you look off-ball.

Originally Posted by APG

How would you rule if you caught the action early...or midway through?

Hopefully I would get the foul at :08 by the green jersey player. I think the white jersey player might have done or said something to make the green jersey player turn around (at :09).....so I would penalize that (probably dead ball tech if I called the 1st one, double tech if I didn't for the staredown at :10). Once they head towards each other and start shadow boxing (:12) it's fighting so flagrant foul/flagrant tech at that point. Not sure what else the C could do (as a man) once the girls start fighting.....it's probably best to let the coaches separate them. I would focus on the benches and make sure I get any other unsporting behavior by the on-court players.

Interesting how the first whistle comes at nearly :14, and it takes the new Lead (who is wearing some spiffy white accented shoes) until :27 to cross half court.

[TriggerMN]

The trail's got too much white on his shoes.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Other things to consider, green had at least 5 players leave the bench. The officials seem to be content to usher them back to the bench without any penalty. Maybe they do penalize, but it didn't look like they had any interest in recording the numbers of the players. If I'm the furthest away official, I'm noting numbers and having the scorer jot them down for me.

Meanwhile, notice that the home AC held her players back from going on the floor. If I'm the home team, I'd certainly be asking whether flagrant Ts are going to the visiting bench personnel who went on the floor. That rule change where head coaches come on the floor in situations like this is a good one, IMO.

As for the C, I wonder why he hung back well after the whistle was blown. I've certainly had my "I can't believe I'm seeing that" pauses, but the new T isn't the only one that should be stepping in, especially with the C so much closer.

One thing for sure. The way those girls were posturing with "dukes up" form, they've certain done this before!

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by bainsey

As for the C, I wonder why he hung back well after the whistle was blown. I've certainly had my "I can't believe I'm seeing that" pauses, but the new T isn't the only one that should be stepping in, especially with the C so much closer.

I think he was attempting to get the number for B1. He went up with a closed fist like he has a common foul, and maybe had a block on B1....

Who goes up with a closed fist after seeing this happen right in front on you?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Who goes up with a closed fist after seeing this happen right in front on you?

It's a foul, isn't it?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am wondering if the T (out of the picture) is not helping keep the bench players on the left on the bench?

That's cool, Jeff, but I'm thinking he can get to the division line a little faster and monitor both. Once he sees those players come off the bench, IMO, that becomes a priority. I count 11 seconds from the time the whistle is blown until the new L comes back into frame. That's a decent amount of time to be at one end of the court when five players have come off the bench at the other end.

Originally Posted by johnny d

I disagree with this part of your statement. If I am the C, I am not waiting for the T to get into the frontcourt. The action is near the division line, on my side of the court. I am moving up to officiate that action. If that doesn't force the L to rotate, I will move back to normal C position after I have officiated the action at the division line. Also, at the NCAA-M level, many camps are teaching the L to rotate before the T has made it to the frontcourt, if and when the action of the players dictates such a move. The idea of waiting for the T to make it into the frontcourt before a rotation can occur is going by the wayside.

I'm cool with this and I've heard the same at NCAAW meetings as well. I'm just saying what's in the manual(s). Regardless, for whatever reason it didn't seem as though the C had much inclination to move closer to the play. That's also a matter of knowing the situation, i.e. the time/foul count info I brought up. There had been 14 fouls in 10½ minutes up to that point. Getting closer to the play - on anyone's part - would have been a good thing.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

It's a foul, isn't it?

So at the point when C has a whistle, you would have a common foul as well?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

So at the point when C has a whistle, you would have a common foul as well?

No but going up with a fist means you're stopping the clock for a foul. According to p. 53 of the IAABO manual "(t)he official shall use the stop the clock/foul signal on all fouls prior to indicating the specific kind of foul." That would include technical fouls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

That's cool, Jeff, but I'm thinking he can get to the division line a little faster and monitor both. Once he sees those players come off the bench, IMO, that becomes a priority. I count 11 seconds from the time the whistle is blown until the new L comes back into frame. That's a decent amount of time to be at one end of the court when five players have come off the bench at the other end.

Maybe that is the case, but either way just my take on what was the case. He probably did not even realize that there was a fight. And it is also possible he was talking with other players and preventing them from getting involved. So much we do not know without talking to the officials or seeing a differnet angle. And with two officials on the end of the court, he does not need to be anywhere close to the situation. He needs to keep everything in his view and take numbers. For all we know, he might know who came off the bench on the right in this video and helped apply the penalties appropriate as the other two officials probably were not aware of who came off the bench. We are not Gods, we do not stop everything because we are standing in a partcular place.

Peace