High School Fight (Video)

[APG]

Talk about coverage...should the trail have been able to pick up the players after the pass? Should the C have been able to catch the players squaring off after the turnover? How would you rule if you caught the action early...or midway through? Anything else to discuss in the play above?

[Raymond]

...Should the C have been able to catch the players squaring off after the turnover?...

You are way too kind. The 2 players had thrown a series of punches right in front of the C, but he was so busy ball watching he didn't even notice.

The C should have stayed with the players in his area after the ball was passed. B1 jumps to defend the pass and lands on A1, the players square off, B1 shoves A1, then the players throw punches.

Yeah, the C should have been able to the catch the players squaring off, but he was more interested in the basketball.

The Lead possibly could have had an accelerated rotation, but I don't think that would have made a difference as to what the C was looking at.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by APG

Talk about coverage...should the trail have been able to pick up the players after the pass? Should the C have been able to catch the players squaring off after the turnover? How would you rule if you caught the action early...or midway through? Anything else to discuss in the play above?

I wouldn't expect the T to pick this up, and even if he did, he would be too far away to jump in and stop things from excalating. The shove by green happened right in front of the C. If the C was looking elsewhere up to that point, a player getting shoved right in front of him should have been enough to get his attention. Immediatly following the shove, there is enough for me to jump in with a double T for the stare down/taunting.

Seeing the whole play on video, I have a double technical foul for the stare down/shove to the chest. Once the two start bobing and weaving that close together, it's a fighting situation and a flagrant double technical.

Other things to consider, green had at least 5 players leave the bench. The officials seem to be content to usher them back to the bench without any penalty. Maybe they do penalize, but it didn't look like they had any interest in recording the numbers of the players. If I'm the furthest away official, I'm noting numbers and having the scorer jot them down for me.

Originally Posted by APG

Talk about coverage...should the trail have been able to pick up the players after the pass?

Maybe. I'm not faulting him for not looking there but when all the players are on that side of the court, I think he could help the C out.

Originally Posted by APG

Should the C have been able to catch the players squaring off after the turnover?

Almost certainly but I can understand why the C followed the ball. It is in his area after all, even if the competitive matchup closer to him is more important. It's tough to know where to look when and knowing when you can let your partners officiate the on-ball play while you look off-ball.

Originally Posted by APG

How would you rule if you caught the action early...or midway through?

Hopefully I would get the foul at :08 by the green jersey player. I think the white jersey player might have done or said something to make the green jersey player turn around (at :09).....so I would penalize that (probably dead ball tech if I called the 1st one, double tech if I didn't for the staredown at :10). Once they head towards each other and start shadow boxing (:12) it's fighting so flagrant foul/flagrant tech at that point. Not sure what else the C could do (as a man) once the girls start fighting.....it's probably best to let the coaches separate them. I would focus on the benches and make sure I get any other unsporting behavior by the on-court players.

Interesting how the first whistle comes at nearly :14, and it takes the new Lead (who is wearing some spiffy white accented shoes) until :27 to cross half court.

[TriggerMN]

The trail's got too much white on his shoes.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by APG

Talk about coverage...should the trail have been able to pick up the players after the pass? Should the C have been able to catch the players squaring off after the turnover? How would you rule if you caught the action early...or midway through? Anything else to discuss in the play above?

Gee, that was a bit of a cluster, wasn't it? In order:

*Yes. That was the T's nearest competitive match-up. I know it's not in his primary any more but it was going into a danger area. He could have helped the situation along by getting into the frontcourt faster. Given that 7 players were on the C's side of the court at the time the ball was caught in the frontcourt a quick rotation forced by the C was in order...but that couldn't happen with the T lagging behind.

*YES!!! They managed to square off, shove each other and throw three punches before he blew his whistle and the players were no more than 10 feet away from him. Lots of luck explaining that one to your supervisor/assignor.

*I can't tell if there was contact by the defender on the pass out of the double team. If there was I think the offensive player got hit in the head. If that's the case a whistle there might stop the madness before it starts. The initial shove by the green player is at least an intentional and if the kid in white says anything that's a T. Anything after that is double flagrant personals or technicals and they can go have a seat.

*Other stuff: Once the cluster begins the new L needs to get to the division line to keep an eye on the benches. Getting there and yelling, "STAY WHERE YOU ARE!" might save some of the bench personnel but anyone who gets a foot on that playing court is done.

[JetMetFan]

One other thing...

Check the clock. They were 2½ minutes into the 2nd quarter and both teams were in the bonus. They obviously didn't spend the first 10½ minutes of the game avoiding contact with each other.

[Matt S.]

I'm sorry, but those who are saying the T should be staying with this play are off base, IMO. First, the L closed down, would've come across had the entry pass been caught cleanly, but it wasn't. Forced the C to be overloaded. However, I don't know how he doesn't 'look globally' in this situation and see these two in his field of vision.

No question the new L should've gotten back into the frame sooner...this is just an ugly situation--but the C needed to see this sooner.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Other things to consider, green had at least 5 players leave the bench. The officials seem to be content to usher them back to the bench without any penalty. Maybe they do penalize, but it didn't look like they had any interest in recording the numbers of the players. If I'm the furthest away official, I'm noting numbers and having the scorer jot them down for me.

Meanwhile, notice that the home AC held her players back from going on the floor. If I'm the home team, I'd certainly be asking whether flagrant Ts are going to the visiting bench personnel who went on the floor. That rule change where head coaches come on the floor in situations like this is a good one, IMO.

As for the C, I wonder why he hung back well after the whistle was blown. I've certainly had my "I can't believe I'm seeing that" pauses, but the new T isn't the only one that should be stepping in, especially with the C so much closer.

One thing for sure. The way those girls were posturing with "dukes up" form, they've certain done this before!

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Matt S.

I'm sorry, but those who are saying the T should be staying with this play are off base, IMO. First, the L closed down, would've come across had the entry pass been caught cleanly, but it wasn't. Forced the C to be overloaded. However, I don't know how he doesn't 'look globally' in this situation and see these two in his field of vision.

The L really didn't need to wait on the entry pass. By that time it's too late, with or without a fight.

This was a pressure situation in the midcourt area (note to Billy & MTDS...yes, I remember what the midcourt area is ). At any rate, the C is supposed to force that rotation but he can only do it if all three officials are in the frontcourt. If the T had gotten into the frontcourt sooner, the C could have moved towards the division line - or the T could have moved into the C position on his side - to bring the L across the lane.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

but he can only do it if all three officials are in the frontcourt. If the T had gotten into the frontcourt sooner, the C could have moved towards the division line

I disagree with this part of your statement. If I am the C, I am not waiting for the T to get into the frontcourt. The action is near the division line, on my side of the court. I am moving up to officiate that action. If that doesn't force the L to rotate, I will move back to normal C position after I have officiated the action at the division line. Also, at the NCAA-M level, many camps are teaching the L to rotate before the T has made it to the frontcourt, if and when the action of the players dictates such a move. The idea of waiting for the T to make it into the frontcourt before a rotation can occur is going by the wayside.

[JRutledge]

I am wondering if the T (out of the picture) is not helping keep the bench players on the left on the bench?

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by bainsey

As for the C, I wonder why he hung back well after the whistle was blown. I've certainly had my "I can't believe I'm seeing that" pauses, but the new T isn't the only one that should be stepping in, especially with the C so much closer.

I think he was attempting to get the number for B1. He went up with a closed fist like he has a common foul, and maybe had a block on B1....

Who goes up with a closed fist after seeing this happen right in front on you?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Who goes up with a closed fist after seeing this happen right in front on you?

It's a foul, isn't it?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am wondering if the T (out of the picture) is not helping keep the bench players on the left on the bench?

That's cool, Jeff, but I'm thinking he can get to the division line a little faster and monitor both. Once he sees those players come off the bench, IMO, that becomes a priority. I count 11 seconds from the time the whistle is blown until the new L comes back into frame. That's a decent amount of time to be at one end of the court when five players have come off the bench at the other end.

Originally Posted by johnny d

I disagree with this part of your statement. If I am the C, I am not waiting for the T to get into the frontcourt. The action is near the division line, on my side of the court. I am moving up to officiate that action. If that doesn't force the L to rotate, I will move back to normal C position after I have officiated the action at the division line. Also, at the NCAA-M level, many camps are teaching the L to rotate before the T has made it to the frontcourt, if and when the action of the players dictates such a move. The idea of waiting for the T to make it into the frontcourt before a rotation can occur is going by the wayside.

I'm cool with this and I've heard the same at NCAAW meetings as well. I'm just saying what's in the manual(s). Regardless, for whatever reason it didn't seem as though the C had much inclination to move closer to the play. That's also a matter of knowing the situation, i.e. the time/foul count info I brought up. There had been 14 fouls in 10½ minutes up to that point. Getting closer to the play - on anyone's part - would have been a good thing.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

It's a foul, isn't it?

So at the point when C has a whistle, you would have a common foul as well?