Flow vs. Rules

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Contact is situational. The very same contact may or may not be a foul depending on the game situation.

I'm clearly not referring to whether or not contact in Case A is the same as contact in Case B, and whether or not it's a foul.

If a player fouls another player (not saying similar contact, but an actual foul), then it doesn't matter where it occurs... relative to the position of the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I'm clearly not referring to whether or not contact in Case A is the same as contact in Case B, and whether or not it's a foul.

If a player fouls another player (not saying similar contact, but an actual foul), then it doesn't matter where it occurs... relative to the position of the ball.

The problem is, "a foul is a foul..." is really a meaningless statement. It's a truism. Most of us know what you mean, but I wouldn't use it with a coach, because too many of them will hear "contact is a foul...."

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

The problem is, "a foul is a foul..." is really a meaningless statement. It's a truism. Most of us know what you mean, but I wouldn't use it with a coach, because too many of them will hear "contact is a foul...."

I'm pretty sure a coach would know that there is legal contact in a basketball game, so they wouldn't need me to dumb it down like that.

But thanks for looking out.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I'm pretty sure a coach would know that there is legal contact in a basketball game, so they wouldn't need me to dumb it down like that.

But thanks for looking out.

Let me say it another way, 99% of the time I see it used, it's used as a sort of rebuttal against advantage/disadvantage concepts. As in, "You can't apply advantage, because a foul is a foul."

When I hear it from coaches, it's after I let incidental contact go uncalled. Maybe your experience is different, though. We're just explaining why some officials around here flinch when we hear the phrase.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

Let me say it another way, 99% of the time I see it used, it's used as a sort of rebuttal against advantage/disadvantage concepts. As in, "You can't apply advantage, because a foul is a foul."

When I hear it from coaches, it's after I let incidental contact go uncalled. Maybe your experience is different, though. We're just explaining why some officials around here flinch when we hear the phrase.

Okay. So how would you react to a coach, or anybody else, that doesn't like off-ball foul calls?

And I don't mean that in a snarky way. I'm honestly asking how you'd phrase it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Okay. So how would you react to a coach, or anybody else, that doesn't like off-ball foul calls?

And I don't mean that in a snarky way. I'm honestly asking how you'd phrase it.

Honestly I don't concern myself. It's not a conversation I'm going to have.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Honestly I don't concern myself. It's not a conversation I'm going to have.

Me either.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Okay. So how would you react to a coach, or anybody else, that doesn't like off-ball foul calls?

And I don't mean that in a snarky way. I'm honestly asking how you'd phrase it.

Honest answer, the same way I react to a coach who starts whining for 3 seconds while the shots keep going up: I quietly recognize he isn't going to have much positive to offer in this game and adjust my internal expectations. If his comments become a distraction, or unsporting, I'll shut it down.

In the course of this game, I wouldn't bother addressing it other than shutting it down if it becomes necessary. If it's in a general discussion among friends (I have friends who coach) off the court, that's different.

If it's a cordial discussion during a break in action and he says something about the flow, I might simply respond that in my opinion, the flow of a game gets disrupted more by uncalled off-ball fouls. But this discussion would only happen with a coach who has already built a good rapport with me: and that's just not the sort of coach who would make such a complaint.

To answer the question: "Coach, I thought that foul needed to be called." Likely more than they're going to get, but it's not less.

[Raymond]

"Coach, it was a foul"

[JRutledge]

I have heard very few supervisors or clinicians talk about flow anymore. The new rules or past guidelines have helped eliminate that part of the discussion.

Peace