The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:11am
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Flow vs. Rules

At last weekend's camp, I was praised by one instructor for a few off-ball calls. I appreciated the positive feedback, but it made me laugh at the same time.

One of the things that coaches' and fellow officials' evaluations dinged me on was that very thing -- "too many off ball calls" (partner) and "affects flow of the game" (coach). Granted, these were at the lowest end of the bell-shaped curve, and the instructor told me to heed none of it, but it makes you wonder how some people think.

I'm all for seeing a play through, especially the on-ball plays (contact affecting RSBQ, et al), but off-ball stuff happens that you have to deal with. I have to believe if some this "flow" garbage is "I want to get the game over with," whether the players are committing fouls or not. Do they expect us to ignore them, so they can get home earlier?
__________________
Confidence is a vehicle, not a destination.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:43am
Esteemed Participant
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 4,775
Chances are they didn't even see what happened that caused you to blow the whistle because they, like 99% of the people in the gym, are watching the player with the ball. And since the action you saw didn't get their attention, it must not have been significant enough to be called.

Like your clinician said - ignore that kind of comment and keep calling the off-ball fouls. That is what cleans up the game.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Orange, NJ
Posts: 2,583
Off-ball fouls also have a pesky way of preventing dirty play/fights. Those they'll notice.
__________________
"Everyone has a purpose in life, even if it's only to serve as a bad example."
"If Opportunity knocks and he's not home, Opportunity waits..."
"Don't you have to be stupid somewhere else?" "Not until 4."
"The NCAA created this mess, so let them live with it." (JRutledge)
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:01am
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
You're going to hear plenty of advice that should go in one ear and out the other. Ignoring off-ball fouls is one of them.

Coach - "They [off-ball foul calls] affect the flow of the game."
Me - "Coach... a foul is a foul. If you don't want them called, then tell your players not to commit them."
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 01:02pm
beware big brother
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: illinois
Posts: 994
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post


Me - "Coach... a foul is a foul. If you don't want them called, then tell your players not to commit them."

Probably not the wisest answer for many reasons.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:43pm
AremRed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
Probably not the wisest answer for many reasons.
It's Referee Bingo™: you keep crossing things off the board until you get to give a technical!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:51pm
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
Probably not the wisest answer for many reasons.
Oh, I wouldn't say that... just think it. My actual reaction would probably be something like "a foul is a foul, regardless of where it's committed."
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Oh, I wouldn't say that... just think it. My actual reaction would probably be something like "a foul is a foul, regardless of where it's committed."
Even that is not really that accurate.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 08:09am
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,379
Random Initial Thoughts

A. Games that flow and necessary of ball fouls called need not be mutually exclusive.

B. Games experienced and studied on video that seemed to get out of control most frequently had ballwatching Officials who, with no clue of off ball primary surveillance principles, missed calls off ball that were the initial seeds of the rough play that cropped up later.

C. Those who complain about off ball fouls aren't looking where you are paid to look. But they will complain more if, by ignoring those calls, you thereby let the game get out of control.

Just some initial random thoughts on the OP...
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call

Last edited by Freddy; Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 08:44am.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:57am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Right Above The Battleship ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Those who complain about off ball fouls aren't looking where you are paid to look.
Rookie officials, and some experienced officials, as well as all coaches, and all fans, need to have this tattooed on their chests.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:24am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
You know what hurts the flow even more? Not calling off ball stuff.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 03:42pm
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Even that is not really that accurate.
Please elaborate.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Please elaborate.
Contact is situational. The very same contact may or may not be a foul depending on the game situation.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:43pm
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Contact is situational. The very same contact may or may not be a foul depending on the game situation.
I'm clearly not referring to whether or not contact in Case A is the same as contact in Case B, and whether or not it's a foul.

If a player fouls another player (not saying similar contact, but an actual foul), then it doesn't matter where it occurs... relative to the position of the ball.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:46pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
I'm clearly not referring to whether or not contact in Case A is the same as contact in Case B, and whether or not it's a foul.

If a player fouls another player (not saying similar contact, but an actual foul), then it doesn't matter where it occurs... relative to the position of the ball.
The problem is, "a foul is a foul..." is really a meaningless statement. It's a truism. Most of us know what you mean, but I wouldn't use it with a coach, because too many of them will hear "contact is a foul...."
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
F.Y.I. Rawlings Cool Flow Helmet IRISHMAFIA Softball 0 Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:57pm
When a defender fails to conform to guarding rules, do you apply screening rules? MiamiWadeCounty Basketball 3 Fri Dec 02, 2011 09:55pm
Understanding Foul Definitions: A Flow Chart boiseball Basketball 9 Tue Oct 23, 2007 04:03am
Stopping the never-ending flow of subs mikesears Basketball 7 Thu Dec 28, 2000 10:34am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:39am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1