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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I don't have it handy, but is the rule book different from the case book:
Yes: "A player holding the ball after gaining control while on the floor.........may not attempt to get up or stand."

Is there a difference between "getting up" and "getting to the feet"?

Also, the rule book doesn't mention that the player can't roll over.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 26, 2014, 06:23pm
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Fahrenheit 451 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The rule book doesn't mention that the player can't roll over.
You're correct. The rulebook doesn't say that a player can't roll over, but the casebook does say that a player can't roll over.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over.


I get what you're saying, but let's not confuse the issue for rookies, and for those that just joined the discussion.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 06:27pm.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:24am
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And just to clarify (focusing on the "no longer sliding" in red from Billy), if a player dives after a ball, grabs said orb and doesn't like the chest burn he/she is getting -- while momentum continues to glide this person across the floor -- he/she may "rotate"/twist on to the buttocks before coming to a stop and THEN faces the no-rollover restrictions, right?

Seems this is actually a fairly common occurrence for this scenario (diving, possessing, twisting so as to be sitting for better view/passing opportunities).
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 12:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Travel.

The only action permitted when lying on the floor it to sit up. And I have never seen a person "sit up" from their belly (or any other position) to their knees as that would be getting up, not sitting up. Sitting up would be from their back to their butt.

Rising to the knees is a partial attempt to stand. Basically, the rule doesn't allow them to get to a more advantageous position aside from the specific one listed (sitting up).

Plus, if they had been on their back, and got to that position, you'd have had a rollover first....traveling long before they got to the knees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I agree on the issue of the player on his back going to his knees. That's a travel.

A player on his stomach going to his knees, however, has not done anything prohibited by rule, IMO. I don't see it as an attempt to stand.
Getting to this a little late but I have to agree with Camron.

Player is flat on his stomach. To stand, he will either
1- rolling over on to his butt
2- put both hands on the floor and walk up with his feet
3- or rise to a his knees.

When he rises to his knees, his attempting to get up. It make no difference whether he makes it to his feet or not. Attempting to get up constitutes traveling.

Attempt get up OR stand? If he goes from stomach to his knees, he has removed his torso from the floor. It may not be an attempt to stand but he certainly did get up.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 12:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amesman View Post
And just to clarify (focusing on the "no longer sliding" in red from Billy), if a player dives after a ball, grabs said orb and doesn't like the chest burn he/she is getting -- while momentum continues to glide this person across the floor -- he/she may "rotate"/twist on to the buttocks before coming to a stop and THEN faces the no-rollover restrictions, right?

Seems this is actually a fairly common occurrence for this scenario (diving, possessing, twisting so as to be sitting for better view/passing opportunities).
Yep.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:37pm
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I asked an official I respect about situations like this and he said "reward good play and penalize bad play".

Don't fully know what that means, but maybe it will help someone trying to understand this play.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
I asked an official I respect about situations like this and he said "reward good play and penalize bad play".

Don't fully know what that means, but maybe it will help someone trying to understand this play.
Honestly, it sounds like a quote from someone who doesn't want to look up the rule.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Honestly, it sounds like a quote from someone who doesn't want to look up the rule.
Or, want to just not call anything unless they're forced to....which is really not good for the game.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 28, 2014, 02:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
I asked an official I respect about situations like this and he said "reward good play and penalize bad play".

Don't fully know what that means, but maybe it will help someone trying to understand this play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Honestly, it sounds like a quote from someone who doesn't want to look up the rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Or, want to just not call anything unless they're forced to....which is really not good for the game.
Let him try that one with his supervisor, especially if he works college ball. I don't think his supervisor will be too happy.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 01, 2014, 11:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
I asked an official I respect about situations like this and he said "reward good play and penalize bad play".

Don't fully know what that means, but maybe it will help someone trying to understand this play.
Suggest you find different official to respect.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 02, 2014, 12:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor View Post
Suggest you find different official to respect.
I talked to him the other day and he clarified it for me. Of course he calls the game by the rules....but this is one thing that helps him with the gray area plays and overall game management.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 01, 2018, 12:15pm
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Roll over is traveling?

Situation

A player is on their butt with the ball. They are on their right hip and here comes a defender to take the ball. They roll to their left hip lifting their right hip off the ground and pass to their point guard.

Was this attempt to get up... I dont think so.

Did this give them advantage? I think so?

Is their right butt/hip considered a pivot like foot and changing that pivot to the left butt/hip considered changing pivots?

I wish the rule book made this clearer because half the referees I see call nothing and half call a travel.

My friend says roll over means rolling as 180 degree barrel roll. I see this as more advantage partially rolling away from a defender who comes to tie up the ball.

I want the opinions here with any reasoning why that I can use on my partners/coaches to make me a better referee. I see this play happen I want to be more confident inside and out when I make my decision.

Thanks in advance.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 01, 2018, 12:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Situation

A player is on their butt with the ball. They are on their right hip and here comes a defender to take the ball. They roll to their left hip lifting their right hip off the ground and pass to their point guard.

Was this attempt to get up... I dont think so.

Did this give them advantage? I think so?

Is their right butt/hip considered a pivot like foot and changing that pivot to the left butt/hip considered changing pivots?

I wish the rule book made this clearer because half the referees I see call nothing and half call a travel.

My friend says roll over means rolling as 180 degree barrel roll. I see this as more advantage partially rolling away from a defender who comes to tie up the ball.

I want the opinions here with any reasoning why that I can use on my partners/coaches to make me a better referee. I see this play happen I want to be more confident inside and out when I make my decision.

Thanks in advance.

The travel rule doesn't contain anything related to "advantage" (and even if it did, it would be to NOT call something that is technically a violation if it DOES NOT gain an advantage. )


Even if this were true, it would only then be illegal to put the right check back on the floor.


The play you describe is legal -- this does not constitute a "roll."
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 01, 2018, 12:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Situation

A player is on their butt with the ball. They are on their right hip and here comes a defender to take the ball. They roll to their left hip lifting their right hip off the ground and pass to their point guard.

Was this attempt to get up... I dont think so.

Did this give them advantage? I think so?

Is their right butt/hip considered a pivot like foot and changing that pivot to the left butt/hip considered changing pivots?

I wish the rule book made this clearer because half the referees I see call nothing and half call a travel.

My friend says roll over means rolling as 180 degree barrel roll. I see this as more advantage partially rolling away from a defender who comes to tie up the ball.

I want the opinions here with any reasoning why that I can use on my partners/coaches to make me a better referee. I see this play happen I want to be more confident inside and out when I make my decision.

Thanks in advance.
Assume it is not a travel unless you can find something definitive in the rule book that states this action is a travel.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 01, 2018, 03:38pm
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No travel. Rocking form hip to hip, while sitting, is not attempting to get up nor is it rolling over.

Rolling over is a player is turning from the stomach to the back, or from laying on their right side to laying on the left side.....something like a full 180 degree change of orientation.
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