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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2014, 09:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post
All that being said, it's not like the double whistle looked bad.
I agree, provided the Lead doesn't signal immediately as well. I don't know why the Lead put his arm down so fast.....leaving it up a second or two strengthens the double whistle.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2014, 10:09pm
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Looking at this again, the Lead is not even looking at the crash, his eyes are on the 2 post players. He can only see the crash from his peripheral. This makes it even more perplexing to me as to why he had a whistle.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2014, 10:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If you don't sound your whistle, in situations like this, you'll be wrong one-hundred percent of the time.
Wise words.

Looking at the source it's not a surprise.

Oh, and I have a PC, but wouldn't take issue with it being called a block.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2014, 11:47pm
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What got me thinking on this one is the L didn't just signal immediately, he signaled first. Now, it may look that way to me because the L went up with a fist while the C went up with a preliminary (bad idea...) but it appears as though he went first.

Those who have been to NCAA-W camps already know the hierarchy we're being reminded of this summer: L has first crack on drives into his/her primary from the T and drives down the middle of the lane. This one was in the C's primary and as Camron pointed out the defender came from the C's primary.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 07:49am
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I think the L is locked in on the post play and only puts in air on it because he realizes there was a crash and someone needs it.

I'm ok with the get from the C in this case though I don't think its the right call.

I've got PC all the way. Ball carrier has no expectation of time and space in real time and slow mo defender gets to LGP.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 11:28am
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I'm really surprised at the number who are indicating they have a PC here when the defender never stops moving forward. She almost gets there, but not quite....and I even tend to call charges more than many.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'm really surprised at the number who are indicating they have a PC here when the defender never stops moving forward. She almost gets there, but not quite....and I even tend to call charges more than many.
Too much of a nit to pick for me on this play. But I also don't have a problem with her call on this play. One of those 50/50 plays.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'm really surprised at the number who are indicating they have a PC here when the defender never stops moving forward. She almost gets there, but not quite....and I even tend to call charges more than many.
I think the defender does actually stop. And if they don't, in that close of a play I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the defender. We penalize defenders too often when they are not in illegal positions.

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 12:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'm really surprised at the number who are indicating they have a PC here when the defender never stops moving forward. She almost gets there, but not quite....and I even tend to call charges more than many.
I've got a charge in slow motion and in real time.

Not sure what you have got that I don't. Her feet are down. Her body and contact to it happen inside the space she is legally occupying.

She can stand there and do the hula so long as she's in LGP and the contact doesn't occur outside of the vertical space she's entitled to.

There is no requirement that her chest/torso be stationary. Just inside the space she's legally entitled to and that's determined by her feet? Am I missing something?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
I see no reason for a whistle from the lead. And I have a player control foul.
Hate when I have to agree with you....on both accounts !!!!

As to th double whistle, somebody said earlier that they were ok with it becasuse it was a secondary defender.......Hogwash !!! Look where the secondary defender comes from. If you agree that the L whistle is OK, then he must be refereeing that girl the entire play. She comes from the C"s primary. That girl didn't come from his area anyway there are players in his area....TRUST YOUR PARTNER !!!!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 01:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'm really surprised at the number who are indicating they have a PC here when the defender never stops moving forward. She almost gets there, but not quite....and I even tend to call charges more than many.
I'm with Camron on this one. I had a block in real time. It is really close in slow mo but I'm sticking with my original call. As someone stated earlier it is a 50/50 play. So my question is how has the crew called all 50/50 block/charge plays all game (if there were any)?

I think the biggest problem with this play is that the calling official signals that it is a non shooting foul (1&1). This is clearly a shooting foul and the other 2 partners should bring this information to the calling official.

Also, I don't think the Lead is refereeing the post players (not much there to referee). He is position adjusting to see the ball at the top of the key.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 02:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiple Sports View Post
Hate when I have to agree with you....on both accounts !!!!

As to th double whistle, somebody said earlier that they were ok with it becasuse it was a secondary defender.......Hogwash !!! Look where the secondary defender comes from. If you agree that the L whistle is OK, then he must be refereeing that girl the entire play. She comes from the C"s primary. That girl didn't come from his area anyway there are players in his area....TRUST YOUR PARTNER !!!!
It was I that noted that I'd be okay with the whistle by the Lead. And I added that it's best that the C take the call.
The Lead had just crossed the key, the contact/foul was in the key, and he immediately dropped his arm when he realized that C had the call.
Had he waited just a fraction longer, such that, if the C had a whistle, as she did, he would not have needed to blow his. And then, if she didn't, his whistle would be regarded as a good get, for the sake of the crew.
Teaching, and learning, good cadence, especially on secondary areas/whistles is not a basic skill, for many officials. I have a feeling that a supervisor for this crew most likely would mention this play in that context. As you said, "trust your partner(s)."
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 03:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
I've got a charge in slow motion and in real time.

Not sure what you have got that I don't. Her feet are down. Her body and contact to it happen inside the space she is legally occupying.

She can stand there and do the hula so long as she's in LGP and the contact doesn't occur outside of the vertical space she's entitled to.

There is no requirement that her chest/torso be stationary. Just inside the space she's legally entitled to and that's determined by her feet? Am I missing something?
While we can certainly disagree on this specific case (I had a block in real time and am even more convinced by the slow-mo), I do think you are also missing something.

The feet being down is not all that is required. The body is only legal if and when it is over the feet and not moving toward the opponent at the time of contact. The requirements on the feet are only momentary and only one of the requirements for LGP. The requirements on the body are constant. The defender can't be moving toward the opponent when contact occurs. And that is referring to the part of the defender that contacts the opponent....the torso.

She must get the body over the feet before she has that position and must stop all forward movement. If she is still moving forward with the torso, she is not yet in that space. Otherwise, a player could extend their feet out to the side/front/etc. to claim the space and bring their body in later.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:24pm
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Clearly ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Heart View Post
This is clearly a shooting foul.
Clearly? Maybe it's worth discussing, but "clearly"? I may, I said may, be inclined to agree but I don't think that it's as clear as you believe it to be. Like I said, it's certainly worth discussing.

"The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball
comes to rest in the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and
is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm,
foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jun 16, 2014 at 04:27pm.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:36pm
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By virtue of being the guy who edited the clip I also can frame-by-frame the play pretty easily. I can post that later if anyone wants to see but suffice to say I still don't see the defender doing anything wrong.

After W23 established LGP and while she's straightening up within her vertical plane B13 enters W23's vertical space and contacts her torso. Essentially, W23 doesn't have the chance to create contact because B13 creates contact first.

If W23 was leaning forward into B13 outside her - meaning W23's - vertical plane I would agree with calling a block.
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