Start the clock....

[Sharpshooternes]

If the first touch on a throw in is an illegal touch (ie kick, two hand grab on a jump, etc) does the clock start?

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

If the first touch on a throw in is an illegal touch (ie kick, two hand grab on a jump, etc) does the clock start?

There shouldn't be, but you might depending on how fast/how antsy the clock operator is.

And no, there is no mandatory run-off. I know you didn't ask, just trying to promote awareness. I had an R this year take off .3 after a quick touch and deflection OOB when the clock had not started. This was right after I (C tableside) told the coach who wanted time to come off that unless we have definite knowledge (like a count or looking at the clock when it should have stopped) then we cannot add/take off time. Yeah, that was a fun game.

[JetMetFan]

NFHS 5-9

2. If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.
3. If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.
4. If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

===================

NCAA 5-10-2

The game clock shall be started when:
a. An inbounds player legally touches the ball on a throw-in;
b. A tossed ball on a jump ball is legally touched; or
c. The ball legally touches a player on the playing court when a free throw is not successful and is to remain live.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by AremRed

There shouldn't be, but you might depending on how fast/how antsy the clock operator is.

And no, there is no mandatory run-off. I know you didn't ask, just trying to promote awareness. I had an R this year take off .3 after a quick touch and deflection OOB when the clock had not started. This was right after I (C tableside) told the coach who wanted time to come off that unless we have definite knowledge (like a count or looking at the clock when it should have stopped) then we cannot add/take off time. Yeah, that was a fun game.

Second part of the question, if time did come off the clock would you correct it. Does it make a difference to you whether it is the jump ball to start the game or the final minutes of the game?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

If the first touch on a throw in is an illegal touch (ie kick, two hand grab on a jump, etc) does the clock start?

Your examples don't mesh.
A kicked ball or one punched with a closed fist is an illegal first touch because that is not a legal manner in which to contact the ball. Therefore, no time comes off the clock and if any does it should be restored.
However, catching a jump ball is not an illegal touch, it is simply a jump ball violation. The same as stepping out of bounds with the ball is a violation. This action should be timed and whatever comes off the clock prior to the whistle sounding for the violation should not be restored.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Catching a jump ball is not an illegal touch, it is simply a jump ball violation.

Are you sure? How about touching the jump ball while it's on its way up?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

However, catching a jump ball is not an illegal touch, it is simply a jump ball violation. The same as stepping out of bounds with the ball is a violation. This action should be timed and whatever comes off the clock prior to the whistle sounding for the violation should not be restored.

Case play, please?

Being called for a kick-ball on a throw-in is as much a violation as catching a jump ball or catching a throw-in pass while OOB. None of them is a legal touch of the ball. If any of them was they wouldn't be listed as violations.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Case play, please?

Being called for a kick-ball on a throw-in is as much a violation as catching a jump ball or catching a throw-in pass while OOB. None of them is a legal touch of the ball. If any of them was they wouldn't be listed as violations.

If the ball is tapped (with one hand) and then caught -- the clock runs.

If the ball is just caught with both hands (cleanly), then I would not run it.

I've never seen the latter.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the ball is tapped (with one hand) and then caught -- the clock runs.

....

The first touch would be legal and therefore not apply to the question at hand. Catching the ball with 2 hands would fall in the this category.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the ball is tapped (with one hand) and then caught -- the clock runs.

If the ball is just caught with both hands (cleanly), then I would not run it.

I've never seen the latter.

You need to get around more I know I've had it a few times over the years.

And BNR is correct..

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

You need to get around more I know I've had it a few times over the years.

And BNR is correct..

I guess I have to get around more too. I have never seen a player catch the ball before the jump ball was tipped.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The first touch would be legal and therefore not apply to the question at hand. Catching the ball with 2 hands would fall in the this category.

Agreed -- just was trying to be sure we were all discussing the same play (esp. since I've never seen anyone even go for the "initial" touch with two hands)

[JetMetFan]

It happened once in a varsity game but I had it a few times in MS games (rec or otherwise), too. The scenario was always both jumpers missed the tap and before the ball hit the floor - obviously - one of the jumpers panicked and caught the ball. Then there would be that pregnant pause of "What the heck do we do now?" before the jumper dropped the ball as though it was a hand grenade.

[Nevadaref]

There were a few case plays/interps issued when the AP arrow rule was altered so that a team retained the arrow if the opponent kicked the ball on the initial touch of the throw-in pass.

One of the plays dealt with a player catching/touching the throw-in pass while standing on a boundary line. It said the touching was legal and the arrow switched, but it was an OOB violation and the opponent's ball at that new location.

From the above play, one can deduce that the NFHS ruling is that touching the ball with the hands (not a closed fist) is a legal action in itself. There may be other restrictions such as OOB, jump ball parameters, BI/GT, etc. which cause the touch to be a violation, but that doesn't mean that the touch isn't proper.

It may be parsing in a legal or exercise in mental logic, but that's the rationale for why such a touch would be timed.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There were a few case plays/interps issued when the AP arrow rule was altered so that a team retained the arrow if the opponent kicked the ball on the initial touch of the throw-in pass.

One of the plays dealt with a player catching/touching the throw-in pass while standing on a boundary line. It said the touching was legal and the arrow switched, but it was an OOB violation and the opponent's ball at that new location.

From the above play, one can deduce that the NFHS ruling is that touching the ball with the hands (not a closed fist) is a legal action in itself. There may be other restrictions such as OOB, jump ball parameters, BI/GT, etc. which cause the touch to be a violation, but that doesn't mean that the touch isn't proper.

It may be parsing in a legal or exercise in mental logic, but that's the rationale for why such a touch would be timed.

What do you mean the "touch would be timed"?

If the touch is a violation, the clock, if running, stops. If it isn't running, it doesn't start.

I seem to remember a spirited discussion with Jurassic Referee about this years ago.