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Sharpshooternes Thu May 15, 2014 08:36pm

Start the clock....
 
If the first touch on a throw in is an illegal touch (ie kick, two hand grab on a jump, etc) does the clock start?

AremRed Thu May 15, 2014 08:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 934192)
If the first touch on a throw in is an illegal touch (ie kick, two hand grab on a jump, etc) does the clock start?

There shouldn't be, but you might depending on how fast/how antsy the clock operator is.

And no, there is no mandatory run-off. I know you didn't ask, just trying to promote awareness. I had an R this year take off .3 after a quick touch and deflection OOB when the clock had not started. This was right after I (C tableside) told the coach who wanted time to come off that unless we have definite knowledge (like a count or looking at the clock when it should have stopped) then we cannot add/take off time. Yeah, that was a fun game.

JetMetFan Thu May 15, 2014 09:10pm

According to that rule book thing...
 
NFHS 5-9

2. If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.
3. If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.
4. If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

===================

NCAA 5-10-2

The game clock shall be started when:
a. An inbounds player legally touches the ball on a throw-in;
b. A tossed ball on a jump ball is legally touched; or
c. The ball legally touches a player on the playing court when a free throw is not successful and is to remain live.

Sharpshooternes Fri May 16, 2014 03:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 934196)
There shouldn't be, but you might depending on how fast/how antsy the clock operator is.

And no, there is no mandatory run-off. I know you didn't ask, just trying to promote awareness. I had an R this year take off .3 after a quick touch and deflection OOB when the clock had not started. This was right after I (C tableside) told the coach who wanted time to come off that unless we have definite knowledge (like a count or looking at the clock when it should have stopped) then we cannot add/take off time. Yeah, that was a fun game.

Second part of the question, if time did come off the clock would you correct it. Does it make a difference to you whether it is the jump ball to start the game or the final minutes of the game?

Nevadaref Fri May 16, 2014 04:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 934192)
If the first touch on a throw in is an illegal touch (ie kick, two hand grab on a jump, etc) does the clock start?

Your examples don't mesh.
A kicked ball or one punched with a closed fist is an illegal first touch because that is not a legal manner in which to contact the ball. Therefore, no time comes off the clock and if any does it should be restored.
However, catching a jump ball is not an illegal touch, it is simply a jump ball violation. The same as stepping out of bounds with the ball is a violation. This action should be timed and whatever comes off the clock prior to the whistle sounding for the violation should not be restored.

BillyMac Fri May 16, 2014 06:15am

Illegal Touch ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 934214)
Catching a jump ball is not an illegal touch, it is simply a jump ball violation.

Are you sure? How about touching the jump ball while it's on its way up?

JetMetFan Fri May 16, 2014 06:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 934214)
However, catching a jump ball is not an illegal touch, it is simply a jump ball violation. The same as stepping out of bounds with the ball is a violation. This action should be timed and whatever comes off the clock prior to the whistle sounding for the violation should not be restored.

Case play, please?

Being called for a kick-ball on a throw-in is as much a violation as catching a jump ball or catching a throw-in pass while OOB. None of them is a legal touch of the ball. If any of them was they wouldn't be listed as violations.

bob jenkins Fri May 16, 2014 07:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 934218)
Case play, please?

Being called for a kick-ball on a throw-in is as much a violation as catching a jump ball or catching a throw-in pass while OOB. None of them is a legal touch of the ball. If any of them was they wouldn't be listed as violations.

If the ball is tapped (with one hand) and then caught -- the clock runs.

If the ball is just caught with both hands (cleanly), then I would not run it.

I've never seen the latter.

Raymond Fri May 16, 2014 07:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 934220)
If the ball is tapped (with one hand) and then caught -- the clock runs.

....

The first touch would be legal and therefore not apply to the question at hand. Catching the ball with 2 hands would fall in the this category.

JetMetFan Fri May 16, 2014 09:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 934220)
If the ball is tapped (with one hand) and then caught -- the clock runs.

If the ball is just caught with both hands (cleanly), then I would not run it.

I've never seen the latter.

You need to get around more :D I know I've had it a few times over the years.

And BNR is correct..

JRutledge Fri May 16, 2014 09:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 934229)
You need to get around more :D I know I've had it a few times over the years.

And BNR is correct..

I guess I have to get around more too. I have never seen a player catch the ball before the jump ball was tipped. ;)

Peace

bob jenkins Fri May 16, 2014 09:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 934222)
The first touch would be legal and therefore not apply to the question at hand. Catching the ball with 2 hands would fall in the this category.

Agreed -- just was trying to be sure we were all discussing the same play (esp. since I've never seen anyone even go for the "initial" touch with two hands)

JetMetFan Fri May 16, 2014 02:11pm

It happened once in a varsity game but I had it a few times in MS games (rec or otherwise), too. The scenario was always both jumpers missed the tap and before the ball hit the floor - obviously - one of the jumpers panicked and caught the ball. Then there would be that pregnant pause of "What the heck do we do now?" before the jumper dropped the ball as though it was a hand grenade.

Nevadaref Fri May 16, 2014 04:53pm

There were a few case plays/interps issued when the AP arrow rule was altered so that a team retained the arrow if the opponent kicked the ball on the initial touch of the throw-in pass.

One of the plays dealt with a player catching/touching the throw-in pass while standing on a boundary line. It said the touching was legal and the arrow switched, but it was an OOB violation and the opponent's ball at that new location.

From the above play, one can deduce that the NFHS ruling is that touching the ball with the hands (not a closed fist) is a legal action in itself. There may be other restrictions such as OOB, jump ball parameters, BI/GT, etc. which cause the touch to be a violation, but that doesn't mean that the touch isn't proper.

It may be parsing in a legal or exercise in mental logic, but that's the rationale for why such a touch would be timed.

just another ref Fri May 16, 2014 05:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 934270)
There were a few case plays/interps issued when the AP arrow rule was altered so that a team retained the arrow if the opponent kicked the ball on the initial touch of the throw-in pass.

One of the plays dealt with a player catching/touching the throw-in pass while standing on a boundary line. It said the touching was legal and the arrow switched, but it was an OOB violation and the opponent's ball at that new location.

From the above play, one can deduce that the NFHS ruling is that touching the ball with the hands (not a closed fist) is a legal action in itself. There may be other restrictions such as OOB, jump ball parameters, BI/GT, etc. which cause the touch to be a violation, but that doesn't mean that the touch isn't proper.

It may be parsing in a legal or exercise in mental logic, but that's the rationale for why such a touch would be timed.

What do you mean the "touch would be timed"?

If the touch is a violation, the clock, if running, stops. If it isn't running, it doesn't start.

I seem to remember a spirited discussion with Jurassic Referee about this years ago.


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