Timing question

[MD Longhorn]

Trying to settle an argument.

For purposes of this discussion, assume perfect knowledge of the clock at all times mentioned, including TV replay if necessary.

Shooter begins to elevate with 0.2 seconds on the clock, and is fouled with 0.1 seconds on the clock. Fully 1 second later the still airborne shooter releases the ball, and it goes in.

Count the basket?

Mention ruleset if it makes a difference. Mention rule or caseplay if it applies.

[walt]

The basket doesn't count because the ball was not released prior to time expiring. However, since he was in the act of shooting when the foul occurred, two (or three) free throws are awarded. If the ball was in flight when time expired, count it.

[JeffM]

No basket, but shoot free throws (unless it is end of the game and free throws are meaningless).

[deecee]

Count the basket, shooter to the line for 1 shot, .1 seconds on the clock.

Although I would hope that the official would have better game awareness than calling this foul, unless its a hatchet job, because in reality this shot "technically" won't count had the foul not occur. Even though I strongly believe in calling a foul when it occurs, there are rare instances where common sense, and awareness needs to be present.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by deecee

Although I would hope that the official would have better game awareness than calling this foul, unless its a hatchet job, because in reality this shot "technically" won't count had the foul not occur. Even though I strongly believe in calling a foul when it occurs, there are rare instances where common sense, and awareness needs to be present.

Could you explain this further please?

[APG]

Originally Posted by walt

The basket doesn't count because the ball was not released prior to time expiring. However, since he was in the act of shooting when the foul occurred, two (or three) free throws are awarded. If the ball was in flight when time expired, count it.

Originally Posted by JeffM

No basket, but shoot free throws (unless it is end of the game and free throws are meaningless).

This is only true if you don't have definite knowledge as to what to put on the clock. In the OP, the clock erroneously expired and you have the definite knowledge as to how much time is on the clock.

In this case, count the basket and put .1 on the clock.

[LRZ]

I don't have a problem calling the foul in such a situation.

And remember that, under NFHS, if the last FT is missed, a FG can only be scored on a tap, not a rebound and try. Rule 5-2-5.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Trying to settle an argument.

For purposes of this discussion, assume perfect knowledge of the clock at all times mentioned, including TV replay if necessary.

Shooter begins to elevate with 0.2 seconds on the clock, and is fouled with 0.1 seconds on the clock. Fully 1 second later the still airborne shooter releases the ball, and it goes in.

Count the basket?

Mention ruleset if it makes a difference. Mention rule or caseplay if it applies.

With replay, you have definite knowledge. The clock should stop on the foul.

Count the basket, 1 shot, put the .1 back up on the clock.

[MD Longhorn]

OK ... now that we have (nearly) unanimous agreement on that ...

Same situation - no replay - no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock ... just the order of events - shot starts; foul happens; buzzer sounds; then noticably after the buzzer --- shot leaves the shooter's hand and then goes in.

[walt]

How did the clock erroneously expire? 5-10 states the referee may correct an OBVIOUS MISTAKE by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time may be placed on the clock.

Ok, I can hear you saying EXACTLY, he/she had definite knowledge. Then how do you justify this in 5-6 which keeps language in exception 3: "If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal."

The act of shooting began in the OP but didn't end with the foul. It ended when time expired and the ball was still in his hands. The foul at .1 did not end the try. So, what rule are you using to justify putting the .1 back up and counting the basket?

[dahoopref]

A.R. 232. In a game without a courtside monitor, the score is tied when the
referee calls a shooting foul on Team A’s unsuccessful attempt:

(1) At approximately the same time as the game-clock horn sounds to end the game; or

(2) With four seconds remaining on the game clock�

RULING: (1) When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, and signals for the clock to stop and the timer fails to stop the clock, a timing mistake has occurred and the official shall put time back on the clock as to when the foul was called. In this case, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game is over.

However, when the official signals for the clock to stop and it is so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock, this is not a timer’s mistake and time should not be placed back on the game clock. When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game shall be over.

On a foul that occurs near the expiration of time, officials must determine that the clock did not stop when the whistle sounded because a timing mistake occurred or because it was so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock. In the first case, time is put back on the game clock and in the second case, it is not.

(2) A1 shall be awarded two free throws. When A1 makes both free throws, Team B shall be awarded the ball out of bounds at the end line under Team A’s basket.

(Rule 10-1, Penalty d[1] and h)

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

OK ... now that we have (nearly) unanimous agreement on that ...

Same situation - no replay - no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock ... just the order of events - shot starts; foul happens; buzzer sounds; then noticably after the buzzer --- shot leaves the shooter's hand and then goes in.

Unless I'm missing something, see Walt's and Jeff's answers at #2 and #3, respectively.

[APG]

Originally Posted by walt

How did the clock erroneously expire? 5-10 states the referee may correct an OBVIOUS MISTAKE by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time may be placed on the clock.

Ok, I can hear you saying EXACTLY, he/she had definite knowledge. Then how do you justify this in 5-6 which keeps language in exception 3: "If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal."

The act of shooting began in the OP but didn't end with the foul. It ended when time expired and the ball was still in his hands. The foul at .1 did not end the try. So, what rule are you using to justify putting the .1 back up and counting the basket?

Time didn't expire because you had definite knowledge that the clock should be stopped at .1 but for the error of the scorer.

[walt]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A.R. 232. In a game without a courtside monitor, the score is tied when the
referee calls a shooting foul on Team A’s unsuccessful attempt:

(1) At approximately the same time as the game-clock horn sounds to end the game; or

(2) With four seconds remaining on the game clock�

RULING: (1) When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, and signals for the clock to stop and the timer fails to stop the clock, a timing mistake has occurred and the official shall put time back on the clock as to when the foul was called. In this case, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game is over.

However, when the official signals for the clock to stop and it is so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock, this is not a timer’s mistake and time should not be placed back on the game clock. When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game shall be over.

On a foul that occurs near the expiration of time, officials must determine that the clock did not stop when the whistle sounded because a timing mistake occurred or because it was so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock. In the first case, time is put back on the game clock and in the second case, it is not.

(2) A1 shall be awarded two free throws. When A1 makes both free throws, Team B shall be awarded the ball out of bounds at the end line under Team A’s basket.

(Rule 10-1, Penalty d[1] and h)

Exactly! Just because we have definite knowledge doesn't matter. You have to determine whether it was a timing MISTAKE or not. The above is NCAA but similar wording is in NFHS rules as well.

The act of shooting began. Foul. Horn sounds after the expiration of 0.1 secs! That is not a timing mistake and you have yet to convince me, and apparently others, that it is. A timing mistake is the only time you can put time back up especially right at the end of quarter/half/game like in this situation. AND, how are you counting the basket?????? Even with a monitor, I am not classifying this as a timing mistake.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by walt

Exactly! Just because we have definite knowledge doesn't matter. You have to determine whether it was a timing MISTAKE or not. The above is NCAA but similar wording is in NFHS rules as well.

The act of shooting began. Foul. Horn sounds after the expiration of 0.1 secs! That is not a timing mistake and you have yet to convince me, and apparently others, that it is. A timing mistake is the only time you can put time back up especially right at the end of quarter/half/game like in this situation. AND, how are you counting the basket?????? Even with a monitor, I am not classifying this as a timing mistake.

It is a given that the foul occurred at .1 in the OP. So, theoretically, the whistle should sound instantly and the clock should stop on the whistle. So theoretically, you put the .1 back on the clock. Realistically, this probably won't happen without replay.