Verbally counting during a throw-in

[Pantherdreams]

Do not count out loud. How do you respond if the inbound defender counts out loud? We've got a team here that has adopted it.

After a couple of games where they were warned to stop and tech'd up once, the coach/AD conctacted our assignor. It was determined that as there was no rule preventing them from counting or calling out numbers to indicate/communicate amongst defenders so long as they didn't use their count to argue or incite we had to let it go. When she gets to 5 well before my count she keeps yelling 5 over and over lol.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

How do you respond if the inbound defender counts out loud? We've got a team here that has adopted it.

You don't ... unless it is during a free throw, which could be considered disconcerting.

[saluki34]

Though the rule states the count is silent, does it prevent you from initiating a verbal "one", and a silent count from there, as an indication that you have begun your count?

The logic behind is that not every referee hands the ball off on the baseline the same way and uses the same method to initiate the count. This lets the inbounder know the count has begun.

Thoughts?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Do not count out loud. How do you respond if the inbound defender counts out loud? We've got a team here that has adopted it.

After a couple of games where they were warned to stop and tech'd up once, the coach/AD conctacted our assignor. It was determined that as there was no rule preventing them from counting or calling out numbers to indicate/communicate amongst defenders so long as they didn't use their count to argue or incite we had to let it go. When she gets to 5 well before my count she keeps yelling 5 over and over lol.

That's unsporting, and it's also deceptive. I'd put a stop to it, and frankly your association needs to stand up and say it.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Adam

That's unsporting, and it's also deceptive. I'd put a stop to it, and frankly your association needs to stand up and say it.

I don't agree with this. It could potentially be unsporting I suppose, but counting out loud in and of itself is not unsporting. The defense could have a legitimate reason for wanting to count out loud and I'm certainly not penalizing the act of counting out loud. Perhaps the defense is fronting the offense and the on-ball defender is sharing information with his/her teamates.

If the counting were to be penalized, it would be for the "how", not the "what", and it would take a lot for me to go this route when it could simply be ignored.

And as far as being deceptive ... defenses should be allowed to be deceptive as long as that deception doesn't violate any rules. You wouldn't penalize a team for deceptively yelling out "2-3 zone, 2-3 zone" only to actually play a full court press. Why would any other deceptive verbal communication be any different?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I don't agree with this. It could potentially be unsporting I suppose, but counting out loud in and of itself is not unsporting. The defense could have a legitimate reason for wanting to count out loud and I'm certainly not penalizing the act of counting out loud. Perhaps the defense is fronting the offense and the on-ball defender is sharing information with his/her teamates.

Do you believe it when coaches say, "I'm not talking to you."?

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Rich

Do you believe it when coaches say, "I'm not talking to you."?

It would depend ... but it's also irrelevent to any penalty I'm going to assess. If I heard "that's terrible" from the coach, I'm not waiting to clarify whether or not it was directed at me to make a decision. If I'm turning to address the coach after hearing that, I've already made up my mind as to whether its a warning or a T

[Rich]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

It would depend ... but it's also irrelevent to any penalty I'm going to assess. If I heard "that's terrible" from the coach, I'm not waiting to clarify whether or not it was directed at me to make a decision. If I'm turning to address the coach after hearing that, I've already made up my mind as to whether its a warning or a T

The reason I asked is actually in rockyroad's post - it's irrelevant why the team says they're doing it. I'd argue that they are doing it in an unsportsmanlike way.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Rich

The reason I asked is actually in rockyroad's post - it's irrelevant why the team says they're doing it. I'd argue that they are doing it in an unsportsmanlike way.

I understand that point if it is unsportsmanlike. I'd just be somewhat hesitent to go down the route of penalizing "counting".

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I don't agree with this. It could potentially be unsporting I suppose, but counting out loud in and of itself is not unsporting.

In the post that started this part of the discussion, it was stated that the defender gets to 5 well before the official's count and then yells 5 over and over.

That is either being done to try to draw a call from us or to show us up. It's going to get a "Knock it off" from me and a word to the Coach about it asap, and if they keep doing it, it will result in a T being called.

[CountTheBasket]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

In the post that started this part of the discussion, it was stated that the defender gets to 5 well before the official's count and then yells 5 over and over.

That is either being done to try to draw a call from us or to show us up. It's going to get a "Knock it off" from me and a word to the Coach about it asap, and if they keep doing it, it will result in a T being called.

I've seen this done a few times and I never felt it was either of those, or even directed towards us. I always thought it was just to try and rush the inbounder in their mind...

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by CountTheBasket

I've seen this done a few times and I never felt it was either of those, or even directed towards us. I always thought it was just to try and rush the inbounder in their mind...

Maybe if they just count 1-2-3-4-5 really fast...but if they get there and are yelling 5-5-5-5 over and over, that's a different story.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Maybe if they just count 1-2-3-4-5 really fast...but if they get there and are yelling 5-5-5-5 over and over, that's a different story.

If they got to the point where they had yelled "five" over an over then, either 1) their initial count was so commically fast that it couldn't be seriously and probably directed at the thrower to add confusion (like yelling "ball ball ball" while guarding the opponent), or 2) the official needs to practice the timing of his/her count as it probably is slow. I just tried it and took me 2 seconds to yell "five" four times.

I just can't realistically picture this happening in a manner as extreme as is being suggested. But "technicals" tend to call themselves, and it one is needed in this case, it should be obvious to everyone.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Do not count out loud. How do you respond if the inbound defender counts out loud? We've got a team here that has adopted it.

After a couple of games where they were warned to stop and tech'd up once, the coach/AD conctacted our assignor. It was determined that as there was no rule preventing them from counting or calling out numbers to indicate/communicate amongst defenders so long as they didn't use their count to argue or incite we had to let it go. When she gets to 5 well before my count she keeps yelling 5 over and over lol.

Attempting to influence an official's decision is a technical foul. That phrase may be listed under the bench/head coach section though.

Otherwise the question becomes if the counting is unsporting behavior.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

In the case of a live ball count, it's either an attempt to influence a call, show up an official, or deceive the offense.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Attempting to influence an official's decision is a technical foul.

"Knock it off."