Verbally counting during a throw-in

[CountTheBasket]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

In the post that started this part of the discussion, it was stated that the defender gets to 5 well before the official's count and then yells 5 over and over.

That is either being done to try to draw a call from us or to show us up. It's going to get a "Knock it off" from me and a word to the Coach about it asap, and if they keep doing it, it will result in a T being called.

I've seen this done a few times and I never felt it was either of those, or even directed towards us. I always thought it was just to try and rush the inbounder in their mind...

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by CountTheBasket

I've seen this done a few times and I never felt it was either of those, or even directed towards us. I always thought it was just to try and rush the inbounder in their mind...

Maybe if they just count 1-2-3-4-5 really fast...but if they get there and are yelling 5-5-5-5 over and over, that's a different story.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Rich

The reason I asked is actually in rockyroad's post - it's irrelevant why the team says they're doing it. I'd argue that they are doing it in an unsportsmanlike way.

I understand that point if it is unsportsmanlike. I'd just be somewhat hesitent to go down the route of penalizing "counting".

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Maybe if they just count 1-2-3-4-5 really fast...but if they get there and are yelling 5-5-5-5 over and over, that's a different story.

If they got to the point where they had yelled "five" over an over then, either 1) their initial count was so commically fast that it couldn't be seriously and probably directed at the thrower to add confusion (like yelling "ball ball ball" while guarding the opponent), or 2) the official needs to practice the timing of his/her count as it probably is slow. I just tried it and took me 2 seconds to yell "five" four times.

I just can't realistically picture this happening in a manner as extreme as is being suggested. But "technicals" tend to call themselves, and it one is needed in this case, it should be obvious to everyone.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

If they got to the point where they had yelled "five" over an over then, either 1) their initial count was so commically fast that it couldn't be seriously and probably directed at the thrower to add confusion (like yelling "ball ball ball" while guarding the opponent), or 2) the official needs to practice the timing of his/her count as it probably is slow. I just tried it and took me 2 seconds to yell "five" four times.

I just can'r realistically picture this happening in a manner as extreme as is being suggested. But "technicals" tend to call themselves, and it one is needed in this case, it should be obvious to everyone.

How about a player counting out loud 1-2-3 on a player in the paint? Or a coach?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I understand that point if it is unsportsmanlike. I'd just be somewhat hesitent to go down the route of penalizing "counting".

I wouldn't hesitate. If they want to stand there and yell "ball ball ball" I won't touch it. But if they're counting, they're going to stop (one way or another).

Would you allow the defensive players to start counting down early at the end of the quarter?

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Rich

How about a player counting out loud 1-2-3 on a player in the paint? Or a coach?

Not that uncommon, especially from coaches. Although I have seen it work to cause an offensive player to leave the lane once they realize that everyone on the court has been made aware of their spot on the court.

As an official, I ignore the coach/players count--half of the time its during a series of shots where there is no count anyway --and I maintain my own count if its in my PCA.

I put this in the category of players calling for "and one" as then run back on defense after a made basket. Ignored 99% of the time. The 1% of the time where it is done in a manner can't be ignored, then it is penalized.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Adam

Would you allow the defensive players to start counting down early at the end of the quarter?

Again, yes ... what is the rules basis for penalizing this? Everyone knows that the scoreboard has the official time, not the defensive players. The only live ball instance I can think of where a player is entitled to a distraction-free environment is during a free-throw.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Again, yes ... what is the rules basis for penalizing this? Everyone knows that the scoreboard has the official time, not the defensive players. The only live ball instance I can think of where a player is entitled to a distraction-free environment is during a free-throw.

Lots of courts have the score board placed in a position not visible to an offensive player facing one or both baskets.

Distraction is fine (ball ball ball), deception of this sort is not part of basketball. It's not gamesmanship. It's bush league, and it's unsporting.

It's one thing if the student section is doing it (then it's just bush league), but when the team does it, it's unsporting.

In the case of a live ball count, it's either an attempt to influence a call, show up an official, or deceive the offense.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Not that uncommon, especially from coaches. Although I have seen it work to cause an offensive player to leave the lane once they realize that everyone on the court has been made aware of their spot on the court.

As an official, I ignore the coach/players count--half of the time its during a series of shots where there is no count anyway --and I maintain my own count if its in my PCA.

I put this in the category of players calling for "and one" as then run back on defense after a made basket. Ignored 99% of the time. The 1% of the time where it is done in a manner can't be ignored, then it is penalized.

Asking for 3 seconds, or 5 second, or 10 seconds, is not the same as counting to 3, 5, or 10 out loud for everyone to hear. Personally, I don't put up with the former if it's done regularly (ignoring it generally does not make it go away), but there is no leeway for the latter.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Rich

How about a player counting out loud 1-2-3 on a player in the paint? Or a coach?

That's one way of NOT getting me to make that call. They will get the message real quick. And if they ask I can reply, "Every time you start counting I forget what number I was on."

[j51969]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I understand that point if it is unsportsmanlike. I'd just be somewhat hesitent to go down the route of penalizing "counting".

If they want to yell BALL, BALL, BALL, or DEAD,DEAD,DEAD play on. Counting while we are inbounding the ball is bush league. Just like screaming at someone from behind on a lay up. For what ever reason this generally finds it's way into girls basketball. I would address this immediately and then re-administer the throw-in. If they do it again, Whack. It's unsporting, not part of the game, and if let go will only cause issues.

[saluki34]

Though the rule states the count is silent, does it prevent you from initiating a verbal "one", and a silent count from there, as an indication that you have begun your count?

The logic behind is that not every referee hands the ball off on the baseline the same way and uses the same method to initiate the count. This lets the inbounder know the count has begun.

Thoughts?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Do not count out loud. How do you respond if the inbound defender counts out loud? We've got a team here that has adopted it.

After a couple of games where they were warned to stop and tech'd up once, the coach/AD conctacted our assignor. It was determined that as there was no rule preventing them from counting or calling out numbers to indicate/communicate amongst defenders so long as they didn't use their count to argue or incite we had to let it go. When she gets to 5 well before my count she keeps yelling 5 over and over lol.

Attempting to influence an official's decision is a technical foul. That phrase may be listed under the bench/head coach section though.

Otherwise the question becomes if the counting is unsporting behavior.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Adam

Would you allow the defensive players to start counting down early at the end of the quarter?

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Again, yes ... what is the rules basis for penalizing this? Everyone knows that the scoreboard has the official time, not the defensive players. The only live ball instance I can think of where a player is entitled to a distraction-free environment is during a free-throw.

I have to agree with Hokie here, there is not basis for penalizing in this instance. I for one think the counting on the inbounds issue is OK, and to some degree I understand the strategy, but I certainly see the point of others thinking it is unsporting. But for the end of the quarter? Hell half the idiots on the offensive team's bench are doing it by counting too fast anyways. Calling that an unsporting T is fishing for trouble...