2 rules questions

[Clark0215]

While playing a fifth grade tournament yesterday there were two violations called I had never seen before. They were called by certified Illinois high school referees.

The first one occurred on a baseline out of bounds play. My player inbounded the ball and then took three or four steps along the baseline before stepping back into the field of play. He was whistled for not stepping directly onto the court.

The second one happened earlier in the day. The same player came to a jump stop and then pivoted. He was whistled for a traveling violation. The explanation I got was that he had already used his pivot on the jump stop.

Can someone explain these rules a little better for me and whether or not they should have been violations?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Clark0215

While playing a fifth grade tournament yesterday there were two violations called I had never seen before. They were called by certified Illinois high school referees.

The first one occurred on a baseline out of bounds play. My player inbounded the ball and then took three or four steps along the baseline before stepping back into the field of play. He was whistled for not stepping directly onto the court.

The second one happened earlier in the day. The same player came to a jump stop and then pivoted. He was whistled for a traveling violation. The explanation I got was that he had already used his pivot on the jump stop.

Can someone explain these rules a little better for me and whether or not they should have been violations?

1) By rule, it's a T for not entering the floor directly / immediately. See 10.3.2A. To be honest, though, it's rarely called that strictly.

2) Depends on "how" he jump stopped (the term is not defined in the book, and is used in three ways):
1) If he gathered the ball in the air, and landed on two feet, then he can pivot.
2) If he gathered the ball in the air, then lands on one foot and jumps off that foot, and then lands on two feet, then ne can NOT pivot
3) If he gathered with one foot on the ground, then jumped off that foot and lands on two feet, then he can NOT pivot.

NOte also that sometimes the player tries to use "jump stop 1" but does not land on both feet simultaneously. In this instance the first foot to land is the pivot foot. If the player then moves that foot (thining he had executed a jump stop), it's a travel.

[Clark0215]

Thanks for the reply. With the jump stop he was dribbling and jumped off of one foot into a jumpstop. When after dribbling do the above mentioned rules apply? When is the "gather" if the ball is not passed to him? Can he jump to shoot or pass after number 2?

Also, we have kids learning the euro step, with some games where it is never called a travel and some where it is always called a travel. Where is the best place to find the rules on traveling? If an official has called something in error and continues to call it in error, what is the best time and way to explain your position to the referee?

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Clark0215

Thanks for the reply. With the jump stop he was dribbling and jumped off of one foot into a jumpstop. When after dribbling do the above mentioned rules apply? When is the "gather" if the ball is not passed to him? Can he jump to shoot or pass after number 2?

Also, we have kids learning the euro step, with some games where it is never called a travel and some where it is always called a travel. Where is the best place to find the rules on traveling? If an official has called something in error and continues to call it in error, what is the best time and way to explain your position to the referee?

The gather happens when the player catches,and has control of, the ball. Does not matter whether the player caught a pass or was dribbling. Once the player moves his pivot foot, the player must either shoot or pass before pivot foot comes back down.

A couple bucks will get you the rule book from the NFHS.

At that level, the euro step is rarely executed legally so an official would be right most of the time calling it a travel. Traveling is a call that an official has to be watching for and if they arent watching for a travel violation, it wont be called.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Clark0215

If an official has called something in error and continues to call it in error, what is the best time and way to explain your position to the referee?

Just about the only question that might be valid is "Can you explain to me what he did wrong so I can teach him?" Then, accept the answer and don't further discuss the point.

If the official is wrong, take it up with the supervisor / assignor without making it personal (don't say *this* official gets it wrong).

[bainsey]

Clark:

I like your questions. The simplest way I can explain travelling is, "pivot foot up + pivot foot down = travel." The instant the ball is gathered, if there's one foot on the floor, that's the pivot foot. You can call it "Euro Step" or "Texas Two Step" for all we care, if the pivot foot comes up, then down, it's travelling.

As Bob noted, there's disagreement as to what constitutes a "jump stop." If you go strictly with #3 (as I do), you can't pivot once both feet hit the floor.

Here's a link to the NFHS Learning Center. As for questioning a official's ruling, it depends. Are you a player, a head coach, assistant coach, or spectator?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Clark:

I like your questions. The simplest way I can explain travelling is, "pivot foot up + pivot foot down = travel." The instant the ball is gathered, if there's one foot on the floor, that's the pivot foot. You can call it "Euro Step" or "Texas Two Step" for all we care, if the pivot foot comes up, then down, it's travelling.

As Bob noted, there's disagreement as to what constitutes a "jump stop." If you go strictly with #3 (as I do), you can't pivot once both feet hit the floor.

Here's a link to the NFHS Learning Center. As for questioning a official's ruling, it depends. Are you a player, a head coach, assistant coach, or spectator?

I don't think there's disagreement. There's just different rules regarding a pivot foot and whether it exists based on when the ball is gathered.

[tjones1]

While you won't find jump stop defined in the book, it appears the NFHS has defined it (legal jump stop) as jumping off one foot and landing with both feet simultaneously.

See 2002-2003 Rules Interps Situation 13.

I was thinking there was another interp that used the term but I couldn't find it.

[Rich1]

What is the best time and way to explain your position to the referee?

I agree that the best way is to ask the ref calmly at half time or after a game, especially in a youth leagues. When I do those games I feel I am partly there to help teach the kids. If I'm asked nicely and a coach just wants to have a conversation so he can learn I will always take time to do this.

A great example of this happened to me last season. In the youth league I coordinate we don't allow backcourt defense, team defenses or isolation plays on offense (trying to promote man to man skills). In one game a coach objected so much that he eventually got two T's and was ejected. Later in the season, he started asking us after every game why we called it this way or that way along with some "what if we did this" type questions. He used this information to teach the kids and design plays that fit our rules. They won the lleague championship that year by beating an undefeated team (who always won by 25+ points) because that team was called multiple times for these violations (most of their plays were disguised zones on defense and spreads on offense) and the coach never adapted.

[Clark0215]

Wow, thanks for all the replies.

With the gather, does that occur when two hands are placed onto the ball or the ball is cradled with one hand? When teaching my kids the jump stop so they can then pivot, just make sure they are in the air while gathering? And to clarify, they can leave one or both feet after situation 2 or 3 but cant come down with the foot/feet until they pass or shoot?


With the fifth graders I have it seems the two rules that are possibly misunderstood by a few of the refs are when my kids are still sliding their feet and seem to obtain legal guarding position and take contact in the chest while the ballhandler is dribbling, but has not left his feet for a shot. Another violation we got called for two or three times was double dribble after my player mishandled a pass and the ball hit the ground, then he picked it up and started dribbling. Maybe I am the one misunderstanding those rules though?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Clark0215

Wow, thanks for all the replies.

With the gather, does that occur when two hands are placed onto the ball or the ball is cradled with one hand? When teaching my kids the jump stop so they can then pivot, just make sure they are in the air while gathering? And to clarify, they can leave one or both feet after situation 2 or 3 but cant come down with the foot/feet until they pass or shoot?


With the fifth graders I have it seems the two rules that are possibly misunderstood by a few of the refs are when my kids are still sliding their feet and seem to obtain legal guarding position and take contact in the chest while the ballhandler is dribbling, but has not left his feet for a shot. Another violation we got called for two or three times was double dribble after my player mishandled a pass and the ball hit the ground, then he picked it up and started dribbling. Maybe I am the one misunderstanding those rules though?

1. The gather is when the player begins holding the ball. Frankly, this is a judgment call. Normally, it's two hands, but that doesn't mean it can't be done with one.

2. It's fifth graders. You're going to get some officials who don't completely understand all the rules, and you're going to get players who aren't properly executing what you've taught them. Roll with it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Clark0215

Wow, thanks for all the replies.
With the gather, does that occur when two hands are placed onto the ball or the ball is cradled with one hand? When teaching my kids the jump stop so they can then pivot, just make sure they are in the air while gathering? And to clarify, they can leave one or both feet after situation 2 or 3 but cant come down with the foot/feet until they pass or shoot?

The end of the dribble is defined by catching the ball with one or both hands. The establishment of the pivot foot is defined by the same thing...when the ball is caught. At the moment where another dribble would be ruled a carry or illegal dribble is the time at which the ball is caught for the purpose of establishing the pivot foot. Some officials will try to insert some magical unnamed status between catching the ball to end the dribble and catching the ball to establish the pivot but there really isn't anything there (unless they've fumbled/muffed the ball).

Originally Posted by Clark0215

With the fifth graders I have it seems the two rules that are possibly misunderstood by a few of the refs are when my kids are still sliding their feet and seem to obtain legal guarding position and take contact in the chest while the ballhandler is dribbling, but has not left his feet for a shot.

You are probably right. I see a lot of officials penalize legal defenders just becasue they're moving. Too many believe a defender must be "set" to take a charge. And I'm not going by observation, I'm going by the explanations the officials have given in response to being asked about the call (not by me, just observing their responses to others).

Originally Posted by Clark0215

Another violation we got called for two or three times was double dribble after my player mishandled a pass and the ball hit the ground, then he picked it up and started dribbling. Maybe I am the one misunderstanding those rules though?

Could be either way. Depends on whether the official feels the first contact was a bat to the ground or an inadvertent drop.