Block/Charge thoughts (video)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Looks like the dribbler is coming from the C's side of the court, and seeing as how it's the primary defender who's involved in the block/charge, then it would be the C's call. I mean, if the dribbler got around the primary defender and a secondary defender was involved in the block/charge, then the L should make the call.

Not that the L can't make a call, but I see no problem with the L deferring to the C here.

Depends on the definition of "secondary defender". On the Men's side, all outnumbered defensive players on a fast break are secondary defenders. I don't know how NCAA-W handle it.

That's why I'm asking #3.

[Rich]

The L seems to still be getting to the end line. Could he feel he doesn't have a good enough look?

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Depends on the definition of "secondary defender". On the Men's side, all outnumbered defensive players on a fast break are secondary defenders. I don't know how NCAA-W handle it.

We use the same definition. A double whistle would have been ideal here, but as the drive is from Cs primary it's his call.

[walt]

This is a PC. At one of my camps last year the clinicians covered #2 and talked about how a lot of officials think (wrongly) that contact for a PC has to be center torso. They showed a bunch of clips similar to this one and the general consensus was practically all of them should have been PC but were called blocks. I also agree a double whistle would have been good here but it is C's primary.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

We use the same definition. A double whistle would have been ideal here, but as the drive is from Cs primary it's his call.

If you consider this a secondary defender, than in NCAA-M, the L gets first crack.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Depends on the definition of "secondary defender". On the Men's side, all outnumbered defensive players on a fast break are secondary defenders. I don't know how NCAA-W handle it.

That's why I'm asking #3.

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

We use the same definition. A double whistle would have been ideal here, but as the drive is from Cs primary it's his call.

Assuming BNR's quote is correct, then the NCAAW is different.

Art. 2. In a fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially shall be a
secondary defender.

Either way, though, I think this is primarily for the RA rule and not necessarily for the "whose call is it?" discussion.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Assuming BNR's quote is correct, then the NCAAW is different.

Art. 2. In a fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially shall be a
secondary defender.

Either way, though, I think this is primarily for the RA rule and not necessarily for the "whose call is it?" discussion.

You are correct, this definition is used to decide PC/block plays in regards to the RA on fast breaks. However, the favored philosophy on the men's side is that L is primary on all such plays in the paint, going to the basket involving secondary defenders regardless as to where the play originated or whether or not the RA is involved.

[johnny d]

The men's version of the rule:


Art. 4. In an outnumbering fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially
shall be a secondary defender.

[Rob1968]

From the camera's angle, at full speed, the contact appears to be on the torso, of the defender. At slow motion, the contact appears to be on the lower portion of the defender's body, and the head and shoulders of the ballhandler appear to be past the front of the defender's torso.
The angle from the calling official's position could easily coincide with that statement, and the block call could be justified.
There also seems to be an apreciable amount of embellishment of the result of the contact, by the defender, i.e. an attempted "flop".

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

and the head and shoulders of the ballhandler appear to be past the front of the defender's torso.

so what?

Just because there's "greater responsibility" on the defense doesn't mean it can't (or shouldn't) be a charge. The defense still didn't move.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

From the camera's angle, at full speed, the contact appears to be on the torso, of the defender. At slow motion, the contact appears to be on the lower portion of the defender's body, and the head and shoulders of the ballhandler appear to be past the front of the defender's torso.
The angle from the calling official's position could easily coincide with that statement, and the block call could be justified.
There also seems to be an apreciable amount of embellishment of the result of the contact, by the defender, i.e. an attempted "flop".

Head and shoulders is a rule of thumb, it's not a hard/fast rule to define a block. It works well when both players are moving, but even then isn't definitive.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Depends on the definition of "secondary defender". On the Men's side, all outnumbered defensive players on a fast break are secondary defenders. I don't know how NCAA-W handle it.

That's why I'm asking #3.

I don't think this is an odd numbered fast break situation. Looks like 2 on 2 to me. Therefore, I am not sure I would classify the defender as a secondary defender. I think the L did a poor job of getting back to the end line and is out of position/straight lined and didn't have a good look. It should be a PC foul.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by johnny d

i don't think this is an odd numbered fast break situation. Looks like 2 on 2 to me. Therefore, i am not sure i would classify the defender as a secondary defender. i think the l did a poor job of getting back to the end line and is out of position/straight lined and didn't have a good look. It should be a pc foul.

+1

[Rich]

Originally Posted by j51969

+1

Just doesn't look like he busted his hump to get there, does it?

[JRutledge]

No way that is anything but a CHARGE!!!!The defender did everything to gain LGP and stopped after getting LGP.

Peace