illegal sub

[timeout]

White 44 enters the game late in the 2nd quarter, but table fails to inform us that she's not in the book. Just before the 3rd quarter starts table tells us about the discrepancy. To begin the 3rd quarter, white 44 is on the court.
How should this be handled?
Thanks in advance.

[BillyMac]

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

After the ten minute time limit a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed: changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players.

[Ky ref]

Indirect tech to coach and must sit on bench for the game

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Ky ref

Indirect tech to coach and must sit on bench for the game

On what planet, using whose rule set?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by timeout

White 44 enters the game late in the 2nd quarter, but table fails to inform us that she's not in the book. Just before the 3rd quarter starts table tells us about the discrepancy. To begin the 3rd quarter, white 44 is on the court.
How should this be handled?
Thanks in advance.

Did the table crew tell the officials about this before adding W44 to the squad list/scorebook or after? If the officials were told before the player was added, then add the player, charge White with a team technical (NFHS 10-1-2b), shoot the FTs, etc. If the officials were told after the player was added to the squad list/scorebook, it's too late to penalize.

Contrary to a prior post this is NOT an indirect technical on the HC. All team technical fouls are charged against the team, period.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ky ref

Indirect tech to coach and must sit on bench for the game

No

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If the officials were told after the player was added to the squad list/scorebook, it's too late to penalize.

Does anybody else this is a horrible part of this rule?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Does anybody else this is a horrible part of this rule?

I don't. Seems to me you have three options.

1. The way it is, and if the scorer doesn't do his job correctly (intentionally or not), you may miss out on a technical foul.

2. Allow it to be penalized whenever it's discovered. This would enable an unscrupulous scorer to make the change, then keep that T in his back pocket until the most opportune time: such as when the score is tied and there's .1 second left on the clock (an extreme example, but you get the point).

3. Allow the officials to have discretion regarding whether to call it.

Option 1 is a recipe for missed free throws early in a game. Options 2 and 3 are, IMO, recipes for disaster.

Also, just to nit pick JMF's post. It's not too late just because it's after the book has been changed. It's too late once the ball becomes live following that change.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

2. Allow it to be penalized whenever it's discovered. This would enable an unscrupulous scorer to make the change, then keep that T in his back pocket until the most opportune time: such as when the score is tied and there's .1 second left on the clock (an extreme example, but you get the point).

I think this is the one. For one thing, this one can easily slip by without malice by anyone. Obviously many scorers at the high school level won't know the details of the rule, so "I waited until we had more time to tell you."
Then, hopefully there are not a lot of unscrupulous ones doing the job, but I think there are plenty who would simply not tell anybody. (hee, hee, I got away with one for the team) or (they're just kids and that's a stupid rule, anyway) For one to hold the T and use it, I don't know. Most wouldn't be that devious, and besides that, they wouldn't think of it.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is the one. For one thing, this one can easily slip by without malice by anyone. Obviously many scorers at the high school level won't know the details of the rule, so "I waited until we had more time to tell you."
Then, hopefully there are not a lot of unscrupulous ones doing the job, but I think there are plenty who would simply not tell anybody. (hee, hee, I got away with one for the team) or (they're just kids and that's a stupid rule, anyway) For one to hold the T and use it, I don't know. Most wouldn't be that devious, and besides that, they wouldn't think of it.

That's a big part of the problem...how many scorers really fully know the rules/responsibilities involved with the position?

In all actuality, it needs to be penalized immediately after being discovered, not just be ignored until it suits the situation.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Adam

Also, just to nit pick JMF's post. It's not too late just because it's after the book has been changed. It's too late once the ball becomes live following that change.

Yeah, yeah...what he said

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

...
2. Allow it to be penalized whenever it's discovered. This would enable an unscrupulous scorer to make the change, then keep that T in his back pocket until the most opportune time: such as when the score is tied and there's .1 second left on the clock (an extreme example, but you get the point).

....

It's just as likely that an unscrupulous or uneducated scorer will make the change, then wait to notify the officials at a subsequent dead ball, so that it is too late to charge the T.

I'm with JAR on this one, once it's discovered that a name has been added, penalize at that point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is the one. For one thing, this one can easily slip by without malice by anyone. Obviously many scorers at the high school level won't know the details of the rule, so "I waited until we had more time to tell you."
Then, hopefully there are not a lot of unscrupulous ones doing the job, but I think there are plenty who would simply not tell anybody. (hee, hee, I got away with one for the team) or (they're just kids and that's a stupid rule, anyway) For one to hold the T and use it, I don't know. Most wouldn't be that devious, and besides that, they wouldn't think of it.

Honestly, the point isn't which would happen more often, it's which would be least damaging to the game if it did happen.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's just as likely that an unscrupulous or uneducated scorer will make the change, then wait to notify the officials at a subsequent dead ball, so that it is too late to charge the T.

I'm with JAR on this one, once it's discovered that a name has been added, penalize at that point.

Then replace the scorer.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

Honestly, the point isn't which would happen more often, it's which would be least damaging to the game if it did happen.

Plus if it was changed it would still allow the "heh-heh we got away with one" error to occur.