illegal sub

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Does anybody else this is a horrible part of this rule?

I don't. Seems to me you have three options.

1. The way it is, and if the scorer doesn't do his job correctly (intentionally or not), you may miss out on a technical foul.

2. Allow it to be penalized whenever it's discovered. This would enable an unscrupulous scorer to make the change, then keep that T in his back pocket until the most opportune time: such as when the score is tied and there's .1 second left on the clock (an extreme example, but you get the point).

3. Allow the officials to have discretion regarding whether to call it.

Option 1 is a recipe for missed free throws early in a game. Options 2 and 3 are, IMO, recipes for disaster.

Also, just to nit pick JMF's post. It's not too late just because it's after the book has been changed. It's too late once the ball becomes live following that change.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

2. Allow it to be penalized whenever it's discovered. This would enable an unscrupulous scorer to make the change, then keep that T in his back pocket until the most opportune time: such as when the score is tied and there's .1 second left on the clock (an extreme example, but you get the point).

I think this is the one. For one thing, this one can easily slip by without malice by anyone. Obviously many scorers at the high school level won't know the details of the rule, so "I waited until we had more time to tell you."
Then, hopefully there are not a lot of unscrupulous ones doing the job, but I think there are plenty who would simply not tell anybody. (hee, hee, I got away with one for the team) or (they're just kids and that's a stupid rule, anyway) For one to hold the T and use it, I don't know. Most wouldn't be that devious, and besides that, they wouldn't think of it.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is the one. For one thing, this one can easily slip by without malice by anyone. Obviously many scorers at the high school level won't know the details of the rule, so "I waited until we had more time to tell you."
Then, hopefully there are not a lot of unscrupulous ones doing the job, but I think there are plenty who would simply not tell anybody. (hee, hee, I got away with one for the team) or (they're just kids and that's a stupid rule, anyway) For one to hold the T and use it, I don't know. Most wouldn't be that devious, and besides that, they wouldn't think of it.

That's a big part of the problem...how many scorers really fully know the rules/responsibilities involved with the position?

In all actuality, it needs to be penalized immediately after being discovered, not just be ignored until it suits the situation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is the one. For one thing, this one can easily slip by without malice by anyone. Obviously many scorers at the high school level won't know the details of the rule, so "I waited until we had more time to tell you."
Then, hopefully there are not a lot of unscrupulous ones doing the job, but I think there are plenty who would simply not tell anybody. (hee, hee, I got away with one for the team) or (they're just kids and that's a stupid rule, anyway) For one to hold the T and use it, I don't know. Most wouldn't be that devious, and besides that, they wouldn't think of it.

Honestly, the point isn't which would happen more often, it's which would be least damaging to the game if it did happen.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

Honestly, the point isn't which would happen more often, it's which would be least damaging to the game if it did happen.

Plus if it was changed it would still allow the "heh-heh we got away with one" error to occur.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Plus if it was changed it would still allow the "heh-heh we got away with one" error to occur.

Yep, nothing says they have to tell you at all if the scorer is really that bad.

[Zoochy]

Just have a discussion with scorer/timekeeper before each game, after the meeting with the Head Coach and Captain(s) and instruct them to sound the horn ASAP when there is a discrepency.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Adam

Also, just to nit pick JMF's post. It's not too late just because it's after the book has been changed. It's too late once the ball becomes live following that change.

Yeah, yeah...what he said

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

...
2. Allow it to be penalized whenever it's discovered. This would enable an unscrupulous scorer to make the change, then keep that T in his back pocket until the most opportune time: such as when the score is tied and there's .1 second left on the clock (an extreme example, but you get the point).

....

It's just as likely that an unscrupulous or uneducated scorer will make the change, then wait to notify the officials at a subsequent dead ball, so that it is too late to charge the T.

I'm with JAR on this one, once it's discovered that a name has been added, penalize at that point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's just as likely that an unscrupulous or uneducated scorer will make the change, then wait to notify the officials at a subsequent dead ball, so that it is too late to charge the T.

I'm with JAR on this one, once it's discovered that a name has been added, penalize at that point.

Then replace the scorer.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

Then replace the scorer.

I thought we were talking about opinions about the rule, not what we have to do now.

I'm just pointing out your scenario is just unlikely or likely as mine.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I thought we were talking about opinions about the rule, not what we have to do now.

I'm just pointing out your scenario is just unlikely or likely as mine.

Sorry, that is my opinion on the better course of action.

I agree, your scenario (incompetence) is more likely than mine. Mine is just more damaging to the game.

Changing the rule doesn't even prevent your scenario at all, really. If a scorer is going to intentionally wait to tell you, he could just as easily not tell you at all if his goal is to try to avoid the T for his team.

[just another ref]

If a scorer truly has evil intentions, there is only so much we can do. I would like to see the oversight part of it removed. "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know. I just thought we could take care of it at the end of the quarter."

[BayStateRef]

Along these lines....

I was R for a varsity game, standing at the table before while the starting lineups were announced by the PA guy. Four home players are announced and four players run onto the court. But when the fifth starter is announced, it is not the same name as the last player on the bench.

The coach comes over and tells the scorer that No. 10 is starting tonight, not No. 21. The scorer takes out the eraser to change the book when I step in. I tell her not to make any changes....and then tell the coach the options: No. 21 starts and No. 10 can come in at the first dead ball. Or, No. 10 can start and we begin the game with two free throws for the visiting team. The coach opted to leave the book alone.

At halftime, I told the scorer that she cannot make any changes once the book had been approved without letting the officials know. She was not pleased with being told that. (I suspect I was not quite as neutral then as I am in retelling the story here.)