Dead ball contact

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by AremRed

First half, I am Trail opposite. 5 seconds left in the first half. Black takes the sideline inbound pass and drives up the court. B1 beats his primary defender, A1. A1 runs to catch up, and tries to swat the ball away from B1. A1 fouls B1 on the arm, who loses the ball. Clock stops at .9 seconds. After my whistle A1 keeps running past B1 and runs into B2 who is at the 3 point line. I cannot see B2 because I am being screened by B1. There is contact between A1 and B2 and A1 ends up on the floor. I hold my original foul call and look to my partners to see if they saw what led to the contact between A1 and B2. We don't gather, and after a few seconds I simply take the 1st foul to the table. At halftime I asked my partners and neither of them saw whether B2 set a legal screen that A1 ran into, or if B2 gave A1 a forearm (which is what A1 was claiming). Neither coach gave me any problems when I reported the foul, and we administered the bonus with B1 shooting.

Absent knowledge of how the dead-ball contact between A1 and B2 occurred, was I right to not call a technical? I felt that B1 was a secondary screener -- would this dead ball contact be Lead's call?

1. Under what circumstances would you call a technical foul, or any type of foul for that matter, without definite knowledge as to what actually occurred?

2. Not sure exactly what type of situation you are describing in this play so I cannot comment with any certainty, but I would think the center would be in a better position than the lead to observe the contact you have tried to describe.

Originally Posted by johnny d

1. Under what circumstances would you call a technical foul, or any type of foul for that matter, without definite knowledge as to what actually occurred?

I felt that something needed to be called on that contact. My L and C were no help, and I seriously considered making a call even though I had no idea if the contact was intentional or simply incidental.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I felt that something needed to be called on that contact. My L and C were no help, and I seriously considered making a call even though I had no idea if the contact was intentional or simply incidental.

I wouldn't lose sleep over it. If the contact was that bad that a T or IF was warranted you have to trust that your partners would handle things.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I felt that something needed to be called on that contact. My L and C were no help, and I seriously considered making a call even though I had no idea if the contact was intentional or simply incidental.

If you didn't see it, what are you going to call?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I felt that something needed to be called on that contact. My L and C were no help, and I seriously considered making a call even though I had no idea if the contact was intentional or simply incidental.

Why did / do you feel that something needed to be called?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I seriously considered making a call even though I had no idea if the contact was intentional or simply incidental.

This is never a good idea. Maybe you guys missed something, perhaps even some flagrant action. Unless you have the option to review the play on a monitor, you are only compounding the problem by making stuff up and guessing. Your feelings are not what matters. Observing the play and making the correct call is. We all have regrets when we think we miss something.

My whistle had blown, so it either would have been an intentional technical, or flagrant technical. It wasn't flagrant, so it was either going to be an INT tech or nothing. I felt a call had to be made because of the amount of contact -- A1 basically got trucked by B2, but I have no idea if it was INT worthy or not. It looked like INT-level contact, but I couldn't know for sure from my angle, all I saw was the kid falling and hit the floor hard. The whole crowd exclaimed and A1 was in my face after getting up telling me how that is an INT. As I said, I only considered doing something because at the time my partners seemed like they had no idea what to do. This suspicion was confirmed when we were in the locker room and they said they had no idea.

[Adam]

Contact doesn't have to be "intentional" to be an intentional foul. IMO, this "unless" provision should also include excessive contact. Not saying you situation would have qualified, but it could have.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Adam

Contact doesn't have to be "intentional" to be an intentional foul. IMO, this "unless" provision should also include excessive contact. Not saying you situation would have qualified, but it could have.

The definition of intentional foul covers the excessive part.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

The definition of intentional foul covers the excessive part.

Yep. Guess I could have been more clear.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

... As I said, I only considered doing something because at the time my partners seemed like they had no idea what to do. This suspicion was confirmed when we were in the locker room and they said they had no idea.

No idea what happened or no idea what to do?

There's a big difference and you haven't given solid statement as to what your partners said about the situation.

[just another ref]

If somebody already said this, forgive me. He mentions in the OP that A1 hits the floor. I hope not too much was made of this. Even if you did see the whole thing a player could have hit the floor, hard even, and it could be the result of incidental contact.

Originally Posted by OKREF

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. If you didn't see what happened, which you said several times you didn't, you can't just call something because you think something happened. If you don't see it, leave it alone. That's what you have partners for.

I would normally agree. If I made a call there it would have been a guess, although an educated guess based on what I did know.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No idea what happened or no idea what to do?

There's a big difference and you haven't given solid statement as to what your partners said about the situation.

I did give a solid statement, I wrote this in my OP:

Originally Posted by AremRed

At halftime I asked my partners and neither of them saw whether B2 set a legal screen that A1 ran into, or if B2 gave A1 a forearm (which is what A1 was claiming).

I say they didn't know what to do because they didn't see the play either.

[Adam]

Where was the collision?

[Raymond]

They knew what to do. They did nothing because they didn't see anything.

In the future everyone needs to have better dead ball awareness. When I see players continuing action after the whistle, I toot my whistle loudly to get them to stop.