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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 09:44am
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I have read the threads concerning dead ball fouls need to be Int, flagrant or lignored. Until it happened in my game it was more a theory than something that could occur. It occurred.

Player A makes his free-throw. As they start going the other way Player B gives a forearm push to Player A2. The ball was not at the disposal of Team B yet. I tweet . I report a foul, no one says anything. Games goes on. I am pretty sure I got this one wrong.

1. Am I correct in that this foul falls under the Int, flagrant or let it go Sitch ?

2. Assuming this foul falls under the INt, Flag, or let it go thingie I really don't like that there is no middle ground. If this occurred in a live ball Sitch i would call a foul but not an INT. So any thoughts on why it has to be called an INt or ignored ? I am looking for reasons behing this rule.

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 10:08am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chess Ref
I have read the threads concerning dead ball fouls need to be Int, flagrant or lignored. Until it happened in my game it was more a theory than something that could occur. It occurred.

Player A makes his free-throw. As they start going the other way Player B gives a forearm push to Player A2. The ball was not at the disposal of Team B yet. I tweet . I report a foul, no one says anything. Games goes on. I am pretty sure I got this one wrong.
Yes, you did.

Quote:
1. Am I correct in that this foul falls under the Int, flagrant or let it go Sitch ?
Yes -- but there's one other option ...

[/b][/quote]2. Assuming this foul falls under the INt, Flag, or let it go thingie I really don't like that there is no middle ground. If this occurred in a live ball Sitch i would call a foul but not an INT. So any thoughts on why it has to be called an INt or ignored ? I am looking for reasons behing this rule.

[/B][/QUOTE]

A "common" (I don't necessarily mean the rule book definiition here) foul is a foul that hinders normal offensive or defensive maneuvers. When the ball is dead, there aren't any maneuvers to interfere with. So, no "common" fouls.

You could, and I have in similar situations, stop the ball from becomming live, and talk to the player(s) involved. A stern, "knock it off" or "just play ball" works well. It lets the player(s) know that you saw what happened and are going to keep looking for it.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 12:57pm
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Don't forget, if you choose to call it, it's an intentional technical foul. Make sure there's enough there to justify a T before you call it.
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Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 01:02pm
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Overkill

Yea I now get it has to be an INT tech foul. Just thought there would be some middle ground between run of the mill push and INT TEch Foul-I will have to just get through my not liking the options.
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Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 01:10pm
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Cool Re: Overkill

Quote:
Originally posted by Chess Ref
Yea I now get it has to be an INT tech foul. Just thought there would be some middle ground between run of the mill push and INT TEch Foul-I will have to just get through my not liking the options.
I would agree there should be something between intentional-technical foul and a stern talking to. But there isn't that I know of.

(But keep it on the down-low that I think that way, some of these guys are a little touchy about questioning the commandments ... I mean the rule book)

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 01:11pm
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Whoa. If the scenario was after a made FT by A, but before B1 picks up the ball for the throw in, B2 sets and illegal screen against A3. You're stating this situation falls into the INT/Flagrant/Ignored enforcement?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:02pm
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Rule 10-13 section 15 article 1
An intentional Technical foul involves intentionally contacting an opponent in a non-flagrant manner while the ball is dead.
If you determined the contact deserved a penalty (which you did, and as described I agree) your only choice is was it flagrant because the ball is dead this is your only option.

As far as the question about a screen - we are trapped if we make the call - you can not have a personal foul on a dead ball.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
[/B]
(But keep it on the down-low that I think that way, some of these guys are a little touchy about questioning the commandments ... I mean the rule book)

[/B][/QUOTE]Wow, still sensitive, aren't you, junior?

Hopefully you'll get over that before (or if) you ever actually get a chance to do any levels higher than frosh/soph high school or your usual middle school games.

Keep telling us what to do using your vast officiating experience and knowledge though.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:17pm
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I think part of this comes down to how you define "at the disposal". A1 makes the FT. Just cause B1 hasn't picked up the ball doesn't mean that it isn't "at the disposal" and thus, a live ball. The easy out on this is to say that in your judgment, the ball was "at the disposal", and thus LIVE, and then you CAN have a plain ole personal foul.
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Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes
I think part of this comes down to how you define "at the disposal". A1 makes the FT. Just cause B1 hasn't picked up the ball doesn't mean that it isn't "at the disposal" and thus, a live ball. The easy out on this is to say that in your judgment, the ball was "at the disposal", and thus LIVE, and then you CAN have a plain ole personal foul.
I like that.

Jurassic,
Haven't you died out yet? Since I like your agressiveness -I'm gonna buy your granddaughter extra butter with her popcorn. That oughta seal the deal.
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Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 02:42pm
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Did someone say Popcorn?

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
[/B]
Jurassic,
Haven't you died out yet? Since I like your agressiveness -I'm gonna buy your granddaughter extra butter with her popcorn. That oughta seal the deal. [/B][/QUOTE]Maybe you'll get to officiate one of her middle school games one day too, junior.

Don't give up your day job though.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 03:29pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Chess Ref
I have read the threads concerning dead ball fouls need to be Int, flagrant or lignored. Until it happened in my game it was more a theory than something that could occur. It occurred.

Player A makes his free-throw. As they start going the other way Player B gives a forearm push to Player A2. The ball was not at the disposal of Team B yet. I tweet . I report a foul, no one says anything. Games goes on. I am pretty sure I got this one wrong.
Yes, you did.

Quote:
1. Am I correct in that this foul falls under the Int, flagrant or let it go Sitch ?
Yes -- but there's one other option ...

2. Assuming this foul falls under the INt, Flag, or let it go thingie I really don't like that there is no middle ground. If this occurred in a live ball Sitch i would call a foul but not an INT. So any thoughts on why it has to be called an INt or ignored ? I am looking for reasons behing this rule.

[/B][/QUOTE]

A "common" (I don't necessarily mean the rule book definiition here) foul is a foul that hinders normal offensive or defensive maneuvers. When the ball is dead, there aren't any maneuvers to interfere with. So, no "common" fouls.

You could, and I have in similar situations, stop the ball from becomming live, and talk to the player(s) involved. A stern, "knock it off" or "just play ball" works well. It lets the player(s) know that you saw what happened and are going to keep looking for it.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. I even used it last night in the first quarter. Two guys were bumping each other with their shoulders as they were crossing half court and elbows were starting to get higher. Not real hard, but just testing each other and quite possibly trying to get a foul against a better player with the idea of that player eventually fouling out. I stopped play and told both players "that is the end of that stuff, you are better players than that."

It also depends on game status, if it is late in the game, and if it is more severe, call it how you see it, but I don't suggest ignoring it.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 22, 2005, 12:40am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
Jurassic,
Haven't you died out yet? Since I like your agressiveness -I'm gonna buy your granddaughter extra butter with her popcorn. That oughta seal the deal. [/B]
Maybe you'll get to officiate one of her middle school games one day too, junior.

Don't give up your day job though. [/B][/QUOTE]

Aw man ... now I'm gonna have to make her call me pappa.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 22, 2005, 04:18am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Blind & lovin' it
Jurassic,
Haven't you died out yet? Since I like your agressiveness -I'm gonna buy your granddaughter extra butter with her popcorn. That oughta seal the deal.
Maybe you'll get to officiate one of her middle school games one day too, junior.

Don't give up your day job though. [/B]
Aw man ... now I'm gonna have to make her call me pappa. [/B][/QUOTE]Why don't you go fuk yourself, you ignorant azzhole.

That might the the absolutely most ignorant post ever made on this forum.

Fuking immature jerk.
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