"Slapping the ball" spin move

[bainsey]

So, here's a first for me:

MS-B. A-1 (a tall kid with sizeable hands) dribbles, gathers with one hand, pivots, slaps the ball into his other hand, then pivots again. He does this twice, and I have a travel both times.

Coach A insists that's not a travel. He teaches his kids to "slap the ball" (though he didn't do it again after the two travel calls). I didn't have time for a full explanation and/or clinic, but I inferred he thought the gather exists when the ball is firmly in both hands, thereby establishing the pivot foot, when in reality, a pivot foot can be established when holding the ball with one hand. And, in this case, the ball is firmly in one hand, typically on the side of the ball, before slapping it into the other.

Thoughts?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

So, here's a first for me:

MS-B. A-1 (a tall kid with sizeable hands) dribbles, gathers with one hand, pivots, slaps the ball into his other hand, then pivots again. He does this twice, and I have a travel both times.

Coach A insists that's not a travel. He teaches his kids to "slap the ball" (though he didn't do it again after the two travel calls). I didn't have time for a full explanation and/or clinic, but I inferred he thought the gather exists when the ball is firmly in both hands, thereby establishing the pivot foot, when in reality, a pivot foot can be established when holding the ball with one hand. And, in this case, the ball is firmly in one hand, typically on the side of the ball, before slapping it into the other.

Thoughts?

I agree.

By rule, once the ball comes to rest in one hand, the dribble has ended, the player is holding the ball, and the pivot foot is established or will be established soon depending on the specific position of the feet (but NOT depending on what they do with the ball).

[ODog]

Without seeing the play, it's hard to say, but the "gather" (for which there is no definition in the rules book, is there?) seems irrelevant.

Sounds like the kid is just pivoting ... and not doing anything in excess with that pivot that would constitute a travel.

Sure, the slapping draws attention to a potentially unorthodox play, but whether the ball is in one or two hands while he's legally pivoting doesn't really matter.

Description's kind of vague (to me), so maybe I'm missing something.

[frezer11]

I think I understand and have seen the play you're talking about, and I think the biggest determination that needs to be made is whether or not the ball is at rest in his one hand prior to the slap move. If the ball isn't moving in relation to the hand, but the hand is on top of the ball the entire time, then I think this has to be considered still part of the dribble, and therefore not a travel yet. However, if his hand is on the side of the ball as you say, then you have to use some judgement. If his hand is underneath that thing at any time, then I think it would be a travel, in the same sense that had he dribbled again it would be a carry.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I think I understand and have seen the play you're talking about, and I think the biggest determination that needs to be made is whether or not the ball is at rest in his one hand prior to the slap move. If the ball isn't moving in relation to the hand, but the hand is on top of the ball the entire time, then I think this has to be considered still part of the dribble, and therefore not a travel yet. However, if his hand is on the side of the ball as you say, then you have to use some judgement. If his hand is underneath that thing at any time, then I think it would be a travel, in the same sense that had he dribbled again it would be a carry.

Players with big hands grab the ball all the time from the top; that's still "at rest." As I'm picturing Bainsey's play, I think it's a good call. The kid is trying to get an extra step with slight of hand. Now, I'd have to be sure that the ball was at rest in the one hand before calling this, but I think Bainsey has enough ball under his belt now to know when a player is holding the ball with one hand as opposed to dribbling.

It's a judgment call, and why we get paid so much money.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Adam

Players with big hands grab the ball all the time from the top; that's still "at rest." As I'm picturing Bainsey's play, I think it's a good call. The kid is trying to get an extra step with slight of hand. Now, I'd have to be sure that the ball was at rest in the one hand before calling this, but I think Bainsey has enough ball under his belt now to know when a player is holding the ball with one hand as opposed to dribbling.

It's a judgment call, and why we get paid so much money.

True, and I realize in the OP it says a player with sizeable hands, and I guess my response is someone who can't palm the ball. My only point is that if at any point before the ball is slapped, if the player could have dropped it to the floor and had it be a legal dribble, then the pivot foot can't have been established yet.

Like you said, judgement call, tough if you don't actually see it live