Clock - Broken Tenths

[Freddy]

Friday night: AD informs us of a quirk in the system. The tenths function on the scoreboard ceased to work. Tricky part was, when the clock showed 00:00, the horn would not blow until the tenths were finished, then it would go off. We asked to have it demonstrated just before the game, which helped because twice that game the whistle killed the clock, which showed 00:00, but the next play was required before the horn ended the first quarter and then the game. He said that if we needed to, we could go to the LED readout at the table and check to see if .3 or less was remaining in order to benefit from that information. Book says, "This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second." Were we correct to avail ourselves of the LED readout of the "clock" in lieu of the scoreboard which lacked that information?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Friday night: AD informs us of a quirk in the system. The tenths function on the scoreboard ceased to work. Tricky part was, when the clock showed 00:00, the horn would not blow until the tenths were finished, then it would go off. We asked to have it demonstrated just before the game, which helped because twice that game the whistle killed the clock, which showed 00:00, but the next play was required before the horn ended the first quarter and then the game. He said that if we needed to, we could go to the LED readout at the table and check to see if .3 or less was remaining in order to benefit from that information. Book says, "This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second." Were we correct to avail ourselves of the LED readout of the "clock" in lieu of the scoreboard which lacked that information?

If the clock shows all zeroes, the quarter/half/game is over.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by bryanv21

if the clock shows all zeroes, the quarter/half/game is over.

+1.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If the clock shows all zeroes, the quarter/half/game is over.

I think I can appreciate this response, but my question remains, "Which display of 'the clock'?" The display on the scoreboard? Or the LED readout on the console which still says, for instance, .7 seconds remaining?
I'm trying to find rules basis for the thing here, and it seems 5-2-5 still leaves it an open question, "Which display of 'the clock'?" The response above might well fly in the face of 5-5-1, granting only 7 minutes and 59 seconds per quarter rather than the requisite 8 minutes.

Do systems whose horn sounds at 00:00 cheat the teams out of four seconds per regulation game compared to systems requiring those ten tenths of a second to expire before the horn?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I think I can appreciate this response, but my question remains, "Which display of 'the clock'?" The display on the scoreboard? Or the LED readout on the console which still says, for instance, .7 seconds remaining?
I'm trying to find rules basis for the thing here, and it seems 5-2-5 still leaves it an open question, "Which display of 'the clock'?"

Scoreboard.

I've never read anything regarding the LED readout on the console.

It's one of those instances where you tell a coach "sorry, but this is what the rule states, so that's what we have to go by".

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If the clock shows all zeroes, the quarter/half/game is over.

Not if the horn hasn't gone off. Just because it doesn't show tenths, doesn't mean it is over.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by okref

not if the horn hasn't gone off. Just because it doesn't show tenths, doesn't mean it is over.

+1


5.6 situation

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Not if the horn hasn't gone off. Just because it doesn't show tenths, doesn't mean it is over.

Not all scoreboard consoles show how much time is left, or even show tenths of a second. For places like that, you don't know whether there are .3 seconds left or .4 seconds left, therefore you don't know whether the team on offense can catch and shoot or can only tap it.

Now, in this case the console does show tenths of a second. However, the rule book does not differentiate between the two types of consoles.

The rule that states that the audible timer's signal is to be used to determine when the time has expired is only for when the ball is live, and we know a catch and shoot can happen.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

+1


5.6 situation

In the case you brought up the ball is already in play, so go by the horn. But the OP says the ball is dead at the time in question. If, at that time, the clock shows zeroes, then that's it.

Like I said, there is no differentiating between consoles that show tenths of a second and those that do not, so you're just making things up if you allow it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

In the case you brought up the ball is already in play, so go by the horn. But the OP says the ball is dead at the time in question. If, at that time, the clock shows zeroes, then that's it.

Like I said, there is no differentiating between consoles that show tenths of a second and those that do not, so you're just making things up if you allow it.

Did you read the case? They are shooting a free throw with zeros on the clock and the lane spaces filled.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Did you read the case? They are shooting a free throw with zeros on the clock and the lane spaces filled.

Well s#&%! LOL

That doesn't make sense, though. How do you determine if an offensive rebounder can attempt a shot by catching first or simply by tapping the ball? Unless, the scoreboard console shows tenths of a second? Which the book doesn't describe. I mean, is the rule different in different gyms? Seems like that should be covered.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

In the case you brought up the ball is already in play, so go by the horn. But the OP says the ball is dead at the time in question. If, at that time, the clock shows zeroes, then that's it.

Like I said, there is no differentiating between consoles that show tenths of a second and those that do not, so you're just making things up if you allow it.

Disagree.

5-6-2 "Each quarter .. ends when the signal illuminates or sounds indicating time has expired."

It's entirely possible for a clock to show 0:00 and the horn not to sound. The period is NOT over. (unless the horn is broken, or the auto horn is off, etc).

Most (but not all) clocks will show the time truncated. That is, if the clock is started and then stopped immediately at the start of a quarter, the clock will change from 8:00 to 7:59, even though there is 7:59.8 (or whatever) left.

Similarly, as time is winding down, the clock will change from 1:01 to 1:00, then remain there for a second then show 59.9, 59.8 etc.

If the tenths don't show, then the clock sill only show the :59.

Then, a clock will show 0:00 for a full second before the horn sounds.

I do agree that it's what is on the scoreboard that matters for the .3 rule -- even if the console shows the tenths. I understand the position of those who would apply the rule if the console shows .3.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Did you read the case? They are shooting a free throw with zeros on the clock and the lane spaces filled.

Which is similar to what we had at the end of the game when we called back all the players to the floor in order to allow a throw-in, a signal to start the clock, then allowed the horn to end the game just after the subsequent play.
Because it was a wide margin for one team, we didn't bother to check at the table to see what fraction of a second remained before the horn.
Under these conditions, would we have felt compelled to check the LED console for what fraction of a second remained if, for instance, it showed .8 seconds remaining in an 80-80 game and one team had a throw-in on their endline? And furthermore, would we have been able to verify if the clock had actually been started at the proper time?
Again, it's not that the "clock" did not display tenths of a second. It's just that the scoreboard function of the "clock" was dysfunctional.
Hope I didn't open a can of worms here......

[OKREF]

5.6.2

Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal illuminates or sounds indicating time has expired, as in 1-14.

Doesn't say when the clock shows zero.

[BryanV21]

I don't think this situation is well covered in the book, and should be cleared up. Using the console to determine how many tenths of a second remain, so we know whether a ball can or can't be caught before a field goal try, doesn't sit well with me. Because not all gyms have consoles that show the time... tenths of a second or not.

I mean, what if in this case the console didn't show the time? How do you proceed? Do you allow a catch and shoot?

I can't say for sure, but I seem to have been in a situation where all zeroes were shown on the clock, but the horn did not sound yet. Furthermore, the console did not display the time, making it impossible to determine if a ball could be caught before a field goal try. So it was decided that the quarter was over with.