technical foul question

[bballrefinks]

Hey all, been on the forum for a while but haven't posted in a very long time, been having a lot of personal issues (depression, anxiety, injuries, health) just starting to get back into posting on forums and what not.

Had an interesting play in a middle school game the other night. key player on visiting team, with 4 fouls, penetrates hard to the basket. As he is going up, a defender is coming his way to try and block the shot. Offensive player clearly extends his arm to push the defensive player back and hold him off. I call the offensive foul. His 5th foul, he is out of the game. The play happened in the second half, so his coach has a good look at it, has no problem with the call.

Here's where things get testy. As I am walking to the table to report the offensive foul, the young man proceeds to tell me in no uncertain terms how lousy he thinks the call was. TWEET! technical foul. Partner and I get together and talk about it, and can't agree on how to enforce it. The situation is that the disqualification had not been reported to the coach and a sub was not at the table. According to the book, the player does not become bench personnel until either, a sub enters the game, or the disqualification is reported to the coach. So technically the player can't be bench personnel. What we ended up doing is just charging the technical foul directly to the player, which actually gave him 6 personal fouls. Is that right? I have studied the book and just can't seem to come up with a logical answer to the question.

My partner and I both agree that the answer has to be so obvious we will kick ourselves once we get the correct answer. So, thoughts? opinions?

[Camron Rust]

Sort of (mostly) right. The only thing I would even say is "wrong" and is more of a semantics issue than what you actually did is that it wasn't really 6 personal fouls. He had 5 personal fouls and 1 technical foul. Technical fouls are not personal fouls. The limit for a player is not 5 personal fouls but just 5 fouls...combined. Other than that minor terminology issue, it was correctly handled.

[just another ref]

Yes, report both fouls, at which time the table should inform you that the personal was his fifth. Inform the coach, let the replacement check in, and administer the technical. Not sure what your concern was.

[rsl]

Not exactly the same, but close.

4.14.1 SITUATION B: A1 is charged with his/her fourth personal foul and reacts
by using profanity. The covering official charges A1 with a technical foul.
RULING: A1 is disqualified. The technical foul brings A1’s total fouls to five, which
results in automatic disqualification. This technical is not charged indirectly to the head coach, as A1 was not “bench personnel” when the technical foul was
charged. (10-3-6b; 4-14-2)

Originally Posted by bballrefinks

Is that right?

You did it right! I guess if he got another tech the player could end up with 7 total fouls by the time he reaches the bench.....but he is disqualified after his 5th. Like Camron said....just a terminology issue.

[Coach Bill]

Do technical fouls on bench personnel count towards the bonus? If so, then it doesn't matter in this case. If not, I guess this technical would add one?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Do technical fouls on bench personnel count towards the bonus? If so, then it doesn't matter in this case. If not, I guess this technical would add one?

Every foul counts toward the bonus except for an indirect technical on the head coach.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Every foul counts toward the bonus except for an indirect technical on the head coach.

I guess that depends on if you consider a technical foul which is additionally indirect to the coach to be considered a separate technical foul, and think it should be recorded separately.

Indirect just means to me that the coach is affected by the penalty, not that he is charged a special "indirect technical" which does not count toward team fouls or shots.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I guess that depends on if you consider a technical foul which is additionally indirect to the coach to be considered a separate technical foul, and think it should be recorded separately.

Indirect just means to me that the coach is affected by the penalty, not that he is charged a special "indirect technical" which does not count toward team fouls or shots.

It is a separate foul which most definitely is charged to the head coach. If he gets a total of any 3 technical fouls, including indirect, he is gone.

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is a separate foul which most definitely is charged to the head coach. If he gets a total of any 3 technical fouls, including indirect, he is gone.

Under the Technical-Foul Penalty Summary (NFHS page 70) I do not see "Indirect Technical" listed under the "Type Foul" column. It is not a separate foul, it is a byproduct of a technical foul against bench personnel, assistant coaches, or a disqualified player. It is recorded separately so we can keep track of how many direct or indirect tech a coach has, but it is not a separate foul in and of itself.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

......it is not a separate foul in and of itself.

Now we're playing word games. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. An indirect is what it is. It has its own definition: 4-19-5e (right under direct) It is recorded in the score book, separate from anything else, and it alone can get the coach sent home.

But, no, it doesn't count as a team foul.

Asked and answered. Move on, counselor.

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

Just that every technical foul you can call adds to the team foul count. We cannot call an indirect technical....it is something that naturally results from one of the penalties I mentioned above. It's just a handy way to remember :)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is a separate foul which most definitely is charged to the head coach. If he gets a total of any 3 technical fouls, including indirect, he is gone.

Originally Posted by AremRed

Just that every technical foul you can call adds to the team foul count. We cannot call an indirect technical....it is something that naturally results from one of the penalties I mentioned above. It's just a handy way to remember

I agree with AremRed. An indirect technical is NOT a separate foul. It is part of another technical foul committed by someone else that for which the coach is held accountable. There is only one foul committed...and it isn't' by the coach...otherwise it would be direct. In fact, every other technical foul is actually a "direct" but there is no need for the distinction since only the head coach is held responsible for the actions of others on the team and there are no indirects for anyone else.

[Sharpshooternes]

Just one more caveat to remember, if the T you called on the player happens after he is replaced, the indirect foul credited to the head coach as the player is now bench personnel, would from then on prevent him from using the coach's box. But from what you describe you got it right. And just for a clarification maybe this will help clear it up, even though a bench player receives a T and the coach gets an indirect T, only was is counted toward the team foul count.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Just one more caveat to remember, if the T you called on the player happens after he is replaced,

He becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified, which is (usually) a little before he is replaced.