Dayton IPFW - Travel

I am not 100 percent certain this is a travel. No call.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Spence

Wow. Didn't know that. Thanks.

Can you cite that rule.

In the NFHS rule book it specifically says that falling to the ground from midair is a travel. (case play 4.44.5 sit A)

In the NCAA rule book it reads:

9-6 Art. 7. It is traveling when a player falls to the playing court while holding the ball without maintaining a pivot foot.


BTW, in response to a longstanding debate, I came across A.R. 190:

After:

(1) Receiving a pass; or

(2) Ending a dribble,

A1 jumps into the air on a try for goal, is contested by B1 and since A1 could not get his try for goal off, he voluntarily throws the ball to the playing court. In both (1) and (2), A1 is the first to touch the ball.

RULING: (1) A1 has committed a traveling violation because he did not release the ball before picking up his pivot foot.

(2) A1's release of the ball, after being airborne, was the start of a second dribble. When A1 touched the ball, A1 committed a double-dribble violation.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In NCAA you have to have a pivot foot in order to travel, so catching the ball in mid-air and falling to the ground is not a travel.

This is not true. A player does not establish a pivot foot until that player steps with one foot while keeping the other foot at its point of contact with the floor. A player who catches a pass with both feet on the floor and does not move either foot has not established a pivot. If this player jumps in the air to shoot but drops the ball to the floor because the defense has prevented him from taking a shot and then is the first to touch the ball, he has committed a traveling violation.

Further, when the player controls the ball with both feet off the court, the first foot that lands is his pivot foot. It doesn't matter if this player is falling while in control of the ball, whatever foot hits first is his pivot foot. If he moves that foot, he has traveled.

The play in the video is not travel because it doesn't look as though the player had control of the ball.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is not true. A player does not establish a pivot foot until that player steps with one foot while keeping the other foot at its point of contact with the floor. A player who catches a pass with both feet on the floor and does not move either foot has not established a pivot. If this player jumps in the air to shoot but drops the ball to the floor because the defense has prevented him from taking a shot and then is the first to touch the ball, he has committed a traveling violation.

Further, when the player controls the ball with both feet off the court, the first foot that lands is his pivot foot. It doesn't matter if this player is falling while in control of the ball, whatever foot hits first is his pivot foot. If he moves that foot, he has traveled.

The play in the video is not travel because it doesn't look as though the player had control of the ball.

In the play from the video I agree:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In this video, no travel as A1 never established a pivot foot while in possession of the ball.

But, if a player lands on his butt or his back it is not a travel because he never established a pivot, which happened in the very first game I ever officiated (military intramurals using NCAA rules). That is the first rule I ever looked up because the person working with me said I should have called a travel.

There is nowhere in the NCAA rule or case books that says a players falling from midair on any part of his body other than his feet/legs has committed a travel.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Spence

Didn't the player establish his pivot foot when his first foot landed before he hit the ground?

Nope. It takes the 2nd foot down before the 1st is the pivot. Otherwise, a jump stop would be a travel.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In the NFHS rule book it specifically says that falling to the ground from midair is a travel. (case play 4.44.5 sit A)

4.44.5 SITUATION A: Is it traveling if A1 falls to the floor: (a) while holding the
ball; or (b) after being airborne to catch a pass or control a rebound? RULING:
Yes in both (a) and (b).

4-44-5-A: A player holding the ball:
May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In the play from the video I agree:

But, if a player lands on his butt or his back it is not a travel because he never established a pivot, which happened in the very first game I ever officiated (military intramurals using NCAA rules). That is the first rule I ever looked up because the person working with me said I should have called a travel.

There is nowhere in the NCAA rule or case books that says a players falling from midair on any part of his body other than his feet/legs has committed a travel.

I took an informal survey of 5 guys I know who work men's college basketball ranging in level from NAIA/D3 up to D1 working in BCS conferences. None of them said they would not call a travel on the player landing on his butt. None of them changed their mind or opinion even after I read them the rule as you pointed it out about the pivot foot. I know that doesn't make travel the right call and that it is a small sample size, but I would venture to guess you would be in the very small minority of people that do not call this a travel. It would be nice for some clarification on this issue. But I think your interpretation is an unintended consequence of a poorly worded rule.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But, if a player lands on his butt or his back it is not a travel because he never established a pivot, which happened in the very first game I ever officiated (military intramurals using NCAA rules). That is the first rule I ever looked up because the person working with me said I should have called a travel.

There is nowhere in the NCAA rule or case books that says a players falling from midair on any part of his body other than his feet/legs has committed a travel.

Right, because if that was the case any time a player dove for a ball, caught it, then landed while still holding the ball it would be a travel and as we know – or should know – that player can land and slide all the way down the floor without committing a violation. The “falling to the floor” deal assumes A1 was upright and holding a live ball before (s)he fell.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Right, because if that was the case any time a player dove for a ball, caught it, then landed while still holding the ball it would be a travel and as we know – or should know – that player can land and slide all the way down the floor without committing a violation. The “falling to the floor” deal assumes A1 was upright and holding a live ball before (s)he fell.

I have to disagree with this statement. The exact wording of the NCAA-M case play in regards to this situation is "Gains control of the ball while sliding on the playing court and then because of momentum rolls or slides" This is AR 194 in current case book and is not ruled travel. It does not say the player can gain control while in the air, land, and then slide without a travel being called. That is a very important distinction. Gaining control while already on the ground and sliding and gaining control while airborne and then sliding.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I have to disagree with this statement. The exact wording of the NCAA-M case play in regards to this situation is "Gains control of the ball while sliding on the playing court and then because of momentum rolls or slides" This is AR 194 in current case book and is not ruled travel. It does not say the player can gain control while in the air, land, and then slide without a travel being called. That is a very important distinction. Gaining control while already on the ground and sliding and gaining control while airborne and then sliding.

Agree. If you catch the ball before getting to the floor, you're still liable for traveling. The slide cases don't apply.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree. If you catch the ball before getting to the floor, you're still liable for traveling. The slide cases don't apply.

No case play applies at the NCAA level. Haven't read anything in the NCAA books that tells me an airborne players gaining PC, travels if he lands on his butt/back/stomach.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No case play applies at the NCAA level. Haven't read anything in the NCAA books that tells me an airborne players gaining PC, travels if he lands on his butt/back/stomach.

Agreed and the next time I see an NCAAW or NCAAM player called for a travel when (s)he dives for a ball, catches it then hits the floor will be the first.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Right, because if that was the case any time a player dove for a ball, caught it, then landed while still holding the ball it would be a travel and as we know – or should know – that player can land and slide all the way down the floor without committing a violation. The “falling to the floor” deal assumes A1 was upright and holding a live ball before (s)he fell.

I disagree, with respect to NFHS rules. No such assumption is made, and any player who falls to the floor with possession of the ball has traveled regardless of his initial position.

Players are only exempt from this if they gain control while already on the floor.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Agreed and the next time I see an NCAAW or NCAAM player called for a travel when (s)he dives for a ball, catches it then hits the floor will be the first.

I agree this call isn't made at either NCAA level. Most likely because the officials are not going to nitpick whether or not the player was in the air while gaining possession or on the ground, but the case play I referenced AR194 clearly states this exception only applies to a player gaining possession while sliding on the court.

This type of play is very different from the play BNR is talking about where the player gains possession of the ball while airborne, such as catching a pass, rebounding or intercepting a pass, and then lands on their back, butt, or any way other than standing. This is called a travel every time. BNR is trying to argue that it cannot be a travel because of the way the rule is worded regarding establishing a pivot foot and I agree that the wording is ambiguous at best. I also think he would be in a very small minority that doesn't call travel on those types of plays and that it would be nice if there was some clarification in the rules or a case book play.

[potato]

Does it matter how the player fell, say on his butt? Maybe there was an incidental contact that made him loose balance and fall on his butt?

Also this means if a player dives for a would be out of bound ball and doesn't let go of the ball before his body reach the floor he gets a travel? In this case what if he let go of the ball after getting the ball and let's go of the ball before his body touches the floor and regain possession of the ball after he's on the floor?

Originally Posted by Adam

I disagree, with respect to NFHS rules. No such assumption is made, and any player who falls to the floor with possession of the ball has traveled regardless of his initial position.

Players are only exempt from this if they gain control while already on the floor.