Dayton IPFW - Travel

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In NCAA you have to have a pivot foot in order to travel, so catching the ball in mid-air and falling to the ground is not a travel.

This is not true. A player does not establish a pivot foot until that player steps with one foot while keeping the other foot at its point of contact with the floor. A player who catches a pass with both feet on the floor and does not move either foot has not established a pivot. If this player jumps in the air to shoot but drops the ball to the floor because the defense has prevented him from taking a shot and then is the first to touch the ball, he has committed a traveling violation.

Further, when the player controls the ball with both feet off the court, the first foot that lands is his pivot foot. It doesn't matter if this player is falling while in control of the ball, whatever foot hits first is his pivot foot. If he moves that foot, he has traveled.

The play in the video is not travel because it doesn't look as though the player had control of the ball.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is not true. A player does not establish a pivot foot until that player steps with one foot while keeping the other foot at its point of contact with the floor. A player who catches a pass with both feet on the floor and does not move either foot has not established a pivot. If this player jumps in the air to shoot but drops the ball to the floor because the defense has prevented him from taking a shot and then is the first to touch the ball, he has committed a traveling violation.

Further, when the player controls the ball with both feet off the court, the first foot that lands is his pivot foot. It doesn't matter if this player is falling while in control of the ball, whatever foot hits first is his pivot foot. If he moves that foot, he has traveled.

The play in the video is not travel because it doesn't look as though the player had control of the ball.

In the play from the video I agree:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In this video, no travel as A1 never established a pivot foot while in possession of the ball.

But, if a player lands on his butt or his back it is not a travel because he never established a pivot, which happened in the very first game I ever officiated (military intramurals using NCAA rules). That is the first rule I ever looked up because the person working with me said I should have called a travel.

There is nowhere in the NCAA rule or case books that says a players falling from midair on any part of his body other than his feet/legs has committed a travel.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In the play from the video I agree:

But, if a player lands on his butt or his back it is not a travel because he never established a pivot, which happened in the very first game I ever officiated (military intramurals using NCAA rules). That is the first rule I ever looked up because the person working with me said I should have called a travel.

There is nowhere in the NCAA rule or case books that says a players falling from midair on any part of his body other than his feet/legs has committed a travel.

I took an informal survey of 5 guys I know who work men's college basketball ranging in level from NAIA/D3 up to D1 working in BCS conferences. None of them said they would not call a travel on the player landing on his butt. None of them changed their mind or opinion even after I read them the rule as you pointed it out about the pivot foot. I know that doesn't make travel the right call and that it is a small sample size, but I would venture to guess you would be in the very small minority of people that do not call this a travel. It would be nice for some clarification on this issue. But I think your interpretation is an unintended consequence of a poorly worded rule.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But, if a player lands on his butt or his back it is not a travel because he never established a pivot, which happened in the very first game I ever officiated (military intramurals using NCAA rules). That is the first rule I ever looked up because the person working with me said I should have called a travel.

There is nowhere in the NCAA rule or case books that says a players falling from midair on any part of his body other than his feet/legs has committed a travel.

Right, because if that was the case any time a player dove for a ball, caught it, then landed while still holding the ball it would be a travel and as we know – or should know – that player can land and slide all the way down the floor without committing a violation. The “falling to the floor” deal assumes A1 was upright and holding a live ball before (s)he fell.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Right, because if that was the case any time a player dove for a ball, caught it, then landed while still holding the ball it would be a travel and as we know – or should know – that player can land and slide all the way down the floor without committing a violation. The “falling to the floor” deal assumes A1 was upright and holding a live ball before (s)he fell.

I have to disagree with this statement. The exact wording of the NCAA-M case play in regards to this situation is "Gains control of the ball while sliding on the playing court and then because of momentum rolls or slides" This is AR 194 in current case book and is not ruled travel. It does not say the player can gain control while in the air, land, and then slide without a travel being called. That is a very important distinction. Gaining control while already on the ground and sliding and gaining control while airborne and then sliding.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I have to disagree with this statement. The exact wording of the NCAA-M case play in regards to this situation is "Gains control of the ball while sliding on the playing court and then because of momentum rolls or slides" This is AR 194 in current case book and is not ruled travel. It does not say the player can gain control while in the air, land, and then slide without a travel being called. That is a very important distinction. Gaining control while already on the ground and sliding and gaining control while airborne and then sliding.

Agree. If you catch the ball before getting to the floor, you're still liable for traveling. The slide cases don't apply.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree. If you catch the ball before getting to the floor, you're still liable for traveling. The slide cases don't apply.

No case play applies at the NCAA level. Haven't read anything in the NCAA books that tells me an airborne players gaining PC, travels if he lands on his butt/back/stomach.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No case play applies at the NCAA level. Haven't read anything in the NCAA books that tells me an airborne players gaining PC, travels if he lands on his butt/back/stomach.

Agreed and the next time I see an NCAAW or NCAAM player called for a travel when (s)he dives for a ball, catches it then hits the floor will be the first.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Right, because if that was the case any time a player dove for a ball, caught it, then landed while still holding the ball it would be a travel and as we know – or should know – that player can land and slide all the way down the floor without committing a violation. The “falling to the floor” deal assumes A1 was upright and holding a live ball before (s)he fell.

I disagree, with respect to NFHS rules. No such assumption is made, and any player who falls to the floor with possession of the ball has traveled regardless of his initial position.

Players are only exempt from this if they gain control while already on the floor.

[potato]

Does it matter how the player fell, say on his butt? Maybe there was an incidental contact that made him loose balance and fall on his butt?

Also this means if a player dives for a would be out of bound ball and doesn't let go of the ball before his body reach the floor he gets a travel? In this case what if he let go of the ball after getting the ball and let's go of the ball before his body touches the floor and regain possession of the ball after he's on the floor?

Originally Posted by Adam

I disagree, with respect to NFHS rules. No such assumption is made, and any player who falls to the floor with possession of the ball has traveled regardless of his initial position.

Players are only exempt from this if they gain control while already on the floor.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by potato

Does it matter how the player fell, say on his butt? Maybe there was an incidental contact that made him loose balance and fall on his butt?

Of course this matters. Incidental contact means it has no effect on the play, so a travel would still be the call. Non-incidental contact would be a foul on the offending player, causing the ball to become dead so the travel would not matter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Of course this matters. Incidental contact means it has no effect on the play, so a travel would still be the call. Non-incidental contact would be a foul on the offending player, causing the ball to become dead so the travel would not matter.

Incidental contact does not necessarily mean it had no impact. Incidental contact could also be contact for which the player who fell is responsible, or contact for which neither player was responsible; even if that contact knocks one or both players to the floor.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

Does it matter how the player fell, say on his butt? Maybe there was an incidental contact that made him loose balance and fall on his butt?

Impossible. If the contact "made him loose [sic] balance" then it wasn't incidental.

Also this means if a player dives for a would be out of bound ball and doesn't let go of the ball before his body reach the floor he gets a travel?

No. He "gets" an OOB violation.

In this case what if he let go of the ball after getting the ball and let's go of the ball before his body touches the floor and regain possession of the ball after he's on the floor?

If he's still OOB, then it's an OOB violation. If he's inbounds, then it's legal. He might have "used" his dribble.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

I disagree, with respect to NFHS rules. No such assumption is made, and any player who falls to the floor with possession of the ball has traveled regardless of his initial position.

Players are only exempt from this if they gain control while already on the floor.

In the NFHS it's clearly spelled out with a case play, so definitely no dispute there.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In the NFHS it's clearly spelled out with a case play, so definitely no dispute there.

And the rule is clear (at least to me)